So I've been reading on JBO for a few years since I've had my car and I've learned a lot, so thank you JBO for that much. I've also read tons of posts about "I have a 2.2 and I want to go fast for cheap $$$ moneyzz!" which we all know doesn't happen with a 2.2 (ln2, 2200).
The goal I've set for myself is that I would like to reach 15s in the quarter which doesn't seem like much. Now, I don't know how attainable that goal is, that's what I've come to ask. Before I go any further, I'm NOT doing an engine swap, boosting, or spraying my car. If spray is what it takes to get to 15s in the end, then so be it, but I'd rather not.
My profile is up to date. In summary, I have the 3-speed auto, an AEM aluminum CAI, A/C sys. removed, Pacesetter 4-1 header, 2.25" full custom exhaust (resonator, stock BMW 318ti cat, 3A Racing can), 2.3L 56mm throttle body swap, RKSport engine mount, MSCC Subframe Brace, Accel 8mm wires, MSD Coil packs (except they don't do anything w/o "The Box"), NGK plugs, Optima Battery, stripped interior, racing seats and harnesses, and a carbon fiber hood. All I have waiting to be installed right now is a TransGo shift kit and more suspension parts that I could easily get, which will do nothing for power right now.
This whole car has been a cheap used-part budget build and I've seen minor performance gains and the car is much more fun to drive, but I need just a bit more out of it. I need to know how far I can go while still keeping this a budget build.
Will the shift kit actually help anything or will it just give me firmer shifts? Will that really help with quarter times?
What about weight reduction? Is it worth it to strip out the carpeting, the rest of my rear seat, and find a carbon fiber trunk?
I've considered a "stage 1 cam" from J-Body Performance and/or a light valve train build, but that seems beyond my budget for the most part.
I've also considered a port/polish which I've been told has potential to reach high 14s? I can get a head for $75 but the port would be around $1k, near what a cam/valve train build would be so that's too expensive right now. I'm thinking a port/polish might be the way to go though.
After finishing my 56mm throttle body build I've lost some lower end power but gained some higher up. I do mostly freeway driving so it suits me right now, but my quarter times have suffered a little.
Does anyone have any realistic advice for me? I have another project car in storage already with more potential but I want to finish this up so I feel like I've accomplished something. This is my first car and my first real effort at modifying for performance. I'm currently at tech school for automotive/diesel training and am teaching myself ECU tuning on the side but I just started. Anyway, any intelligent advice would be welcomed and appreciated. Thanks.


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Gerkn

I was just thinking, what about a compression increase to 10:1 with WiseCo pistons from J Body Performance?
Bore (mm/Inch) 86.00, Over Sizes 3.386 Std., Stroke 3.724, Comp. Height 1.053, Head cc's, 53.2 FT, Dome/Dish Volume 0CC, Block Ht 8.700., Comp. Ratio 10:1, Pin Diam. .787, Ring Type 8600XX, Gram Weight 276.


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Gerkn

Just to start you off, see about getting a spare motor you can build on the side while you continue driving the car.

10:1 CR is easily achieved for less than the cost of custom pistons. Using stock / replacement pistons, have your block zero decked. This is milling the block till the deck surface is even with the top of the piston. Combined with either the Cometic MLS head gasket and minimal resurfacing of the head or a stock replacement head gasket (such as the Fel-Pro) and surfacing the head approximately .030 will get you your 10:1 CR. Custom pushrods will be require if you do this, but they will be needed with the other mods I'll be recommending (later).

You will have a cam in that motor, which you can typically get reground for $150, far less than the aftermarket options, which most are over-priced regrinds themselves.

I need to get ready for work, I'll get back with you later.

Hay, thanks for the reply. If possible, I want to keep this under $1000, but I'm interested in what getting to 15s takes.
Do you think getting the block zero decked, a MLS Head Gasket, and a set of custom pushrods will get me to low 16s at least (I'm running high 16s now)? and I'm confused... You said I can either zero the block with a MLS gasket without resurfacing the head OR zero the block and resurface the head .030" with a stock gasket?
I was looking at your profile, You have tons of experience with machine shops, what are we talking as far as money for the machine work? I know people so I might be able to get some discounts, but what would you say?
As far as the cam goes, what kind of specs do I need to tell the machine shop I want? I'm looking for something mild enough for the street and that I can run as much of the vehicle stock as possible with minor ECU tuning. I'm only trying to reach high-mid 15s and I want my girlfriend to be able to drive the car during her college years (I have another project I can get working on soon for a 2nd car).
I'm not too concerned about taking the engine apart, I can take the car to up north Wisconsin (i live in Illinois) to my grandpa's body shop and take it apart there and maybe get a loaner car for a week until I come back to it.


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Gerkn

Sorry about the double-post. Someone from the classifieds is selling a JBP Stage 2 cam and SBI lifters for 70% of retail (Duration @ .050*, Valve Lift INTAKE 207*, 480 EXHAUST 212*, 490) do you think this would be good for my situation to get or too aggressive?


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Gerkn

i was going to say underdrive pulley 5hp and roller rockers 1.6? 8hp

Underdrive pulley I've heard isn't worth it for street cars because of the alternator issues. Rockers is a good idea though, cheap and supposedly improves the mid-upper power band. I just need to find a place or person that sells them thats reliable. Can't get the crane ones so I guess I need to find the CompCams rockers... JBP sells them but I keep hearing bad things about them.
Either way rockers and the shift kit should help me out in the quarter a little. Might help make my bored T/B seem like more of a good idea.


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Gerkn

I really think you need to look into some moderate port work, at least. You've already opened it up at the throttle body and exhaust; now complement those modifications with a well-flowing head and port-matched intake runners. 1.6 rockers can help but if you're going for a re-grind anyway they're kind of overkill, unless you're looking to get really crazy. After that, the most important thing is a good tune to set it all off an get everything you can out of the modifications you've made. I know this isn't something you'll want to hear, but a good 5-speed may help you out too...


"In Oldskool we trust"

Thanks for the input.
I'm just trying to keep it as cheap as I can while just making into the 15s. Trust me, I'd love to just port the head and be done with it, but it's a very expensive process, otherwise it would be a no- brainer. At this point, if I can't make it to the 15s without spending $1k or more then it's not worth it to me. I bought my car for $1400 and it's lasted me from highschool to college and if it's time to give it up to the girlfriend, then it's time. I have a 1989 Corolla GTS with a 4AGE 5-speed waiting for me to restore so if it can't be done, then it can't be done. I'd like to avoid the regrind if possible and just try getting a set of rockers and see where that puts me without a tune. I'm still learning about ECU tuning stuff in my free time.
if I can leave this car running at 15.5sec, enough to keep up with a 2000 V6 mustang for less than $1000 invested in major performance then I will be more than happy with my cavalier experience.
I'm still open to any ideas, and I'm considering the regrind and ECU tune but I'd still rather not deal with cam tuning.


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Gerkn

With an exhaust, ported head, tune, lifters, intake, and motor mounts I was able
To run a 16.3.

Mind you this was on @!#$ty tires and I CAN'T launch the car very well. (5spd). I also had a full interior with a sub and my toolbag (about 50lbs).

The car had more in it, but not with me behind the wheel.

I recommend some headwork as well, but with a tune, this is where
I felt the most improvent. If you search around I guarentee you find a shop to port your head for less than $1000. I found a few places for around $600 by me.






"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire

Found a set of CompCams Rockers for $95
Summit CompCams
and I'm calling around Milwaukee asking about a port and polish and block zero decking and head resurfacing. Going to pick up a spare head from the junkyard for $75 and see what happens from there. Need to look into custom pushrods...


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Gerkn

if you only have a 1000 to spend i think the manual swap is where its at. Bball ran the times your looking for NA with really simular mods. In his profile it says he had a ported head, but I think that was afterwards. I'm sure there are other people on here who may remember a little better. I really think that 3 speed is holding you back though. Check his times and profile in the racing forum top 1/4 times.

I agree on the manual swap. When my car was stock, it would pull away from my brothers 3spd pretty good after 2nd gear.

I bought a used trans for my car when mine popped, and it was only like $300 (50k miles on it). So if you shop around you can probably do the swap for well under $1k.





"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire

I believe you, but I'm not really willing to go through THAT much custom fabrication. I can have the car out of commission for maybe 2-4 days max and that's not even certain.
I did however talk to Extreme Speed Cylinder heads over in Milwaukee, Brian built a whole $2500+ OHV sunfire race head for my guy nick back in '04 and he said $275 for a P&P and another $115 for a valve job. I think I'm going to pick a head from the boneyard, send it in for a P&P, get a set of CompCams lifters for $100, then pull a valvebody from an auto at the boneyard and do the shift kit myself and swap it in. That should get me where I want. If not, then it's on to the 10:1 compression and custom pushrods.


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Gerkn

If you haven't seen them already, here are some threads that would pertain to the work you are looking to do:
2.2/2200 OHV Rocker Arm List
Stock Torque Converters, 3 Speed Gears and more

To get the most out of the TH125C/3T40, you need more than a shift (improver) kit. You would need a torque converter and gears to maximize the perform ace potential of this transmission. Sounds like you have the ability to do the trans work yourself, so finding a transmission from a scrapyard with the gearing you need should be an inexpensive swap.

Here's what I've done to mine:
•Phantom Grip LSD Conversion Kit (JEG'S)
•performance Clutches (Billy's Transmission Ocala)
•3.06:1 final drive/3.43:1 effective (Billy's)
•Superior Transmission Shift Improver Kit (Billy's)
•Hayden Transmission Cooler
•Yank 3000rpm stall Torque Converter (David S. The Camaro Guy)
That turned out to make some of the biggest gains I've made. The Yank Converter is no longer a regular production item, but the can custom build one, but that would probably bee more than your willing to spend. You best bet would be to look into the stock replacement TC as outlined in the thread above. look for the second letter code of A or P for a 2795 rpm stall or K for a 2760 rpm stall.

Byron Clemens ran a 13.60 @ 100 mph with this trans, with changes to the valve body, the TC and the gearing, all on drag slicks. This was done before most of the streetable mods have been developed and the availability of HP Tuners.

You mentioned Comp Cams lifters, did you mean their valve springs? Comp doesn't have lifters for this motor and the valve spring depends on what cam you are going to run. if the lift remains under .470" and the rpms under 6000 rpm, then the stock spring should be fine. If your cam is designed to rev beyond 6000 rpm and/or the total valve lift is more than .470, then the Comp Cams 26981 springs in a valve spring pocket machined .100" deeper will work. These spring are only drop in on the '97 & older motors, not the '98+, which require machining the valve spring pockets.

That's a good price on the P&P. The valve job is a typical price. Look into the +1 mm oversized valves form CarCustoms.net or TuboTechRacing.com. Both are good people to work with. The oversized valves shouldn't change the cost of the valve job, as the work is the exact same. The slightly bigger valve will allow for slightly better airflow and won't sink the valves into the valve seats, for a minuscule increase in compression.

Thank god... I was wondering when somebody would mention torque-converters.


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Nickelin Dimer wrote:Thank god... I was wondering when somebody would mention torque-converters.

Haha. I just never mess with automatics. I can't have enough fun when I'm driving an auto...


"In Oldskool we trust"

wth? are you ppl serious? My Cav, granted about 110k miles in its past, ran a 16.2 at the strip, and all i did was: remove the jack/spare, backseat, and passenger seat... along with some sticky tires, race fuel mixed down in some 93 octane in the tank, balls, and some concentration. 2200 no mods... really. wth are you ppl doing wrong, idk, but i think it may be that you are doing too much. Think Lotus Elise, "Just add lightness." was the philosophy behind that wunderkind auto. So I did just that, sat my lovely g/f in the drivers seat, all of 100 lbs or so (never had the balls then to ask her weight, we'd just gotten started being together), said go when the light goes green... 16.2 no internal mods.

silvercavi02 wrote:wth? are you ppl serious? My Cav, granted about 110k miles in its past, ran a 16.2 at the strip, and all i did was: remove the jack/spare, backseat, and passenger seat... along with some sticky tires, race fuel mixed down in some 93 octane in the tank, balls, and some concentration. 2200 no mods... really. wth are you ppl doing wrong, idk, but i think it may be that you are doing too much. Think Lotus Elise, "Just add lightness." was the philosophy behind that wunderkind auto. So I did just that, sat my lovely g/f in the drivers seat, all of 100 lbs or so (never had the balls then to ask her weight, we'd just gotten started being together), said go when the light goes green... 16.2 no internal mods.

Your profile says that yours was a 5speed manual, not a 3speed auto... DICK.

Long story short, if your going to do internal modifications to your motor, just get another one and build it. But if you want to go cheap... I think my next move would be rockers and a serious tune with serous timing. And some high octane fuel to keep it from detonation.

Yea, I've been getting prices and testing numbers on Desktop Dyno, it looks like some trans work would go pretty far...
I'm looking at a phantom LSD (green $300), Transgo Shift Kit I have already, TranStar GM73CW FA Recon T/C, and some 33/37 sprockets for a 3.06 final drive, and an Alto rebuild kit... can't find prices on the rest and don't really know where to buy the sprockets from...
Otherwise, I'm going to pick up a head from the bone-yard (and maybe have it flow tested just for records) and have it P&P w/ valve job ($390) with the TTR +1mm valves ($100), throw on the 1.6:1 rockers ($100 from summit).
So, quick total for prices that I found plus a $75 head is $965... not including the T/C, sprockets, and Alto master performance kit, and a spare valve body to modify for the shift kit... It will theoretically shave off about 2sec from the quarter putting me at +/- 15sec flat.
I think that's as far as I would like to go. Maybe a Tune. Any more than that and I'll be looking at a cam and have to worry about everything that goes with that (lifters, pushrods, pistons, bottom end work, etc.) so I guess that's the plan over the next 2 years or so. Just need to find prices on the rest of the trans parts and I just have to save up the money.
Already working on ordering an addco rear sway bar, RKsport bushings, and finishing installing the FE2 front bar, so I think I'll be sitting pretty good. Maybe a tie bar or K-Brace in the future if I really get into competition.


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Gerkn

The transmission work seems to be right on line, except for the sprockets. Check the code on your transmission(Refer to my thread here, fifth paragraph), the code should be 4AKC, which should already have the 33-37 sprockets. Regardless, you should be able to pick-up a transmission with those sprockets from a salvage yard, as I seriously doubt that they would crack open one just to get them out for you. The same would apply for the valve body.

For $100, you must be looking at the stamped rockers. For the small gains in ratio accuracy, you'll lose most of it to frictional losses of the pivot ball. You will still need to get the ARP rocker arm studs to fit the pivot ball and nuts on the rocker arms. The best deal on narrow bodied rocker arm so far has been Proform Rocker Arms, Stud Mount, Full Roller, Aluminum, 1.6 Ratio, Fits 3/8 in. Stud, Chevy, Small Block, Set of 16 for $188.95 . Sell the eight you don't use to recoup some of the cost, or go in on a set with some one and split the cost. You will still need the studs.

I have a few regrind profiles that can do much better than stock with out the need for the major valve train work. You can go ahead and do the lifter mod while they are out with the cam.

You will need a lot more motor work, gearing and some weight reduction to reach 15s with a 3 speed. They are the most durable of the transmissions that came in the J-bodies, but not the most officiant nor best performing in stock form.

My automatic trans class didn't really go into modification other than the valve body so I'm kindof confused. How can you have a 33/37 sprocket setup and have 3 different final drives?? 2.84, 3.06, 3.33.... I thought the drive/driven sprocket and the chain decided your final drive... How would I change from 2.84 to 3.06?

As for the rockers, I was originally looking at this set: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-1418-8/ from summit "COMP Cams Magnum Steel Roller Tip Rocker Arms".
SO instead, I would want to check out the Proform ones and then pick up a set of these ARP studs? (I'll probably get new head bolts, etc. while I'm ordering from them)
"134-7201 M8 X 1.25 base, 3/8" X 24 top, used on '98+ 2200s (some '98s may have M10 X 1.5 holes, check) $72 for 16."


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Gerkn

the lemur wrote:if you only have a 1000 to spend i think the manual swap is where its at. Bball ran the times your looking for NA with really simular mods. In his profile it says he had a ported head, but I think that was afterwards. I'm sure there are other people on here who may remember a little better. I really think that 3 speed is holding you back though. Check his times and profile in the racing forum top 1/4 times.

x2 ! 5speed is ALOT better then the 3speed...also IMO stick>auto, dont know your thoughts on that or if you get stuck in traffic alot, i do not so i<3manual

Gerkn wrote:My automatic trans class didn't really go into modification other than the valve body so I'm kindof confused. How can you have a 33/37 sprocket setup and have 3 different final drives?? 2.84, 3.06, 3.33.... I thought the drive/driven sprocket and the chain decided your final drive... How would I change from 2.84 to 3.06?

33-37 is the driven/drive sprockets for the chain that takes the power from the centerline of the crankshaft and moves it down to the center line of the drive axles, which run down the center of the gears. Those gears drive the differential made up of a Sun gear and planetary gears. The differentials come in three ratios 2.84, 3.06 & 3.33:1. When you multiply the ratio of the sprockets times the differential ratio you end up with the effective drive ratio.

MadJack wrote:Example: ... divide the driven number by the drive number:37(driven)/33(drive)=1.1212121 for the multiplication factor. Now multiply that by the gear ratio, 2.84*1.1212121=3.1842423 or 3.18:1 effective drive ratio.

95LsCoupe wrote:x2 ! 5speed is ALOT better then the 3speed...also IMO stick>auto, dont know your thoughts on that or if you get stuck in traffic alot

That is an opinion, not fact. You are entitled to your opinion.

I will agree that stock the manuals that came in the J-Bodies is much better for performance or auto-X.

As for handling brute torque and durability, no other transmission that came stock in a J-Body comes close to the TH125C/3T40's durability. This transmission is limited by gear selection ( max of 3.73:1) and application, being they only came with the small GM bolt pattern, i.e.: 1.8L/2.0L/2.2L OHV 4 cylinder and 60* V6 motors.

It is more economically feasible and less technically difficult to set up the 5 speeds (either model) for specific use than the TH125, so it's easy to understand why most use the 5 speeds.