I am just curious as to what to expect for gains (if any) with a meth/water coolmist kit on a 2.4L, with a GMPP Supercharger kit, CAI, and a -MD- Light weight crank pulley. I know that its going to run cooler and therefore safer, but does anyone have similar mods and notice much of a diff. in performance? Also which mods would you recommend that would show considerable gains for reasonable amounts of $. Thanks in advance for any comments/ideas.
If you just run meth without tuning the car for meth you will hurt your performance. Also you stand the risk of if the meth pump ever fails or you run out of meth your gonna end up killing the motor.
In my opinion meth isn't worth the risks I've seen some really nice motors take a @!#$ when it fails.
As for other mods a full header back exhaust with either a high flow cat or no cat would work well for you for relatively low cost.
JGM T-SHIRTS!!!!
In Loving Memory of Phil Martin December 14 2005
Alexis: Dustin, you're ghey, lol. I am better. I have tits, and tits rule all.
^Never listen to this guy for any automotive advice. Ever.
Get the methanol injection system.
2001 Olds Alero (LD9)
650 whp / 543 ft-lb
@turboalero
[ion wrote: C2]^Never listen to this guy for any automotive advice. Ever.
Get the methanol injection system.
I have seen dyno proof of cars running meth without a tune for it running lower number then without the meth (as seen by a member of JGM).
With a proper tune there is a benefit but that still leaves the fact that if you aren't careful and run out of meth or the pump takes a dive on you the car (being tuned for meth now) will not enjoy it. You risk permanent damage when it happens.
For the cost of the meth kit and tuning to put it to proper use I do not see it worth the risks for the minute gain it provides (also proven on a dyno by the same member of JGM)
JGM T-SHIRTS!!!!
In Loving Memory of Phil Martin December 14 2005
Alexis: Dustin, you're ghey, lol. I am better. I have tits, and tits rule all.
I can vouch for RedCavy here, I saw a car run on meth and dyno 25 wheel horsepower
LESS than without. It all depends on the tune. Also, keep in mind that liquids don't compress, so running meth will slightly raise your compression ratio.
That's because they likely do not have the correct size nozzle and are bogging down the engine by quenching the combustion...
Most methanol kits have low-level indicators. "Minute gain" heheh... maybe on a physically intercooled setup, but the MP45 lives for meth injection!
2001 Olds Alero (LD9)
650 whp / 543 ft-lb
@turboalero
joseph camacho wrote:I can vouch for RedCavy here, I saw a car run on meth and dyno 25 wheel horsepower LESS than without. It all depends on the tune. Also, keep in mind that liquids don't compress, so running meth will slightly raise your compression ratio.
Water is incompressible, not all liquids. And it's not a liquid, it's a vapor by the time it reaches the combustion chamber. Why do you think it comes out a nozzle to atomize the mix rather than simply pouring the @!#$ in?
Yeah? What car? What temperatures? What nozzle size? How much spark advance? Methanol in general will improve performance on the MP45 even without a tune. Don't be pulling out ONE dynamometer test from some random car that "proves" meth without a tune is the worst thing ever. And how it's going to be unreliable and unsafe.
2001 Olds Alero (LD9)
650 whp / 543 ft-lb
@turboalero
Yeah, once he got his tune under control he was fine. He made no other changes to his setup. He carries a bottle of windex in his trunk and refills the reservoir whenever he gets fuel. However, he has yet to put a low level indicator in.
[ion wrote: C2]joseph camacho wrote:I can vouch for RedCavy here, I saw a car run on meth and dyno 25 wheel horsepower LESS than without. It all depends on the tune. Also, keep in mind that liquids don't compress, so running meth will slightly raise your compression ratio.
Water is incompressible, not all liquids. And it's not a liquid, it's a vapor by the time it reaches the combustion chamber. Why do you think it comes out a nozzle to atomize the mix rather than simply pouring the @!#$ in?
Yeah? What car? What temperatures? What nozzle size? How much spark advance? Methanol in general will improve performance on the MP45 even without a tune. Don't be pulling out ONE dynamometer test from some random car that "proves" meth without a tune is the worst thing ever. And how it's going to be unreliable and unsafe.
One of the properties of a liquid is that you can't compress liquid. Give me a liquid that you can compress and I'll make you a very rich man.
if you get the meth kit and only have the stock pulley, you will see minimal gains. Mostly what you will see is the performance you had before the charger got heat soaked. Which is essentually what the meth kit is doing, keeping the charger from getting heat soaked, which keeps your motor cooler. Also, methanol injection cleans your motor a bit, gets rid of a lot of the carbon build up.
If you tune based on always having the methanol spraying while in boost and the meth motor blows or you run out of meth then yes you could detonate your engine.
Depending on what you spray into the motor, yes you could hurt performance a bit but its usually going to be better than a heat soaked charger.
Once you get into using the smaller than stock pulleys, like the 2.6 and the controversal 2.5, the methanol kit is almost mandatory being that they spin the charger so much faster and cause heat soak much more quickly than the standard pulley, not to mention they make more boost.
A cooler motor is a happier motor.
So yes, its got its ups and downs, but if you weren't ready for it, you wouldn't have signed up for this forum or started modding, you would have left it alone and drove grandma to the grocery store like a good grandson.
another thing you could do, is get rid of the timing retard that GM put in the reflash, that is the biggest performance destroyer of a stock LD9 blower setup. GM overcompensated for knock and detonation, tho can you blame them?
I never said it was the worst thing ever, I'm just stating that in certain instances Meth can be detrimental to performance. Sure once he had his setup configured properly he ran fine, and continues to do. I never said it was unreliable, I never said it was unsafe. It's just not for everyone, I honestly prefer to run a W/A intercooler.
Who is this chump?? Haha! Saying that some liquids are compressible. Someone needs to take physics 101 again. Liquids are only compressible to the volume that they take up. Find me a liquid that compresses and ill @!#$ a brick.
P.S.
Vapor is technically still a liquid. Ever heard of sublimation? All this stuff?
anyways, that's my ranting and raving. I know nothing of meth injection. Sorry i cant help out. Just keeping the science aspect of it all correct.
"You can only feed them semen for so long before their legs fall off."
When my friend installed his meth kit on his TT GTO he lost nearly 50whp, once it was tuned for meth he picked up 17whp.
Senorguitar19 wrote:Who is this chump?? Haha! Saying that some liquids are compressible. Someone needs to take physics 101 again. Liquids are only compressible to the volume that they take up. Find me a liquid that compresses and ill @!#$ a brick.
P.S.
Vapor is technically still a liquid. Ever heard of sublimation? All this stuff?
anyways, that's my ranting and raving. I know nothing of meth injection. Sorry i cant help out. Just keeping the science aspect of it all correct.
True, gases compress and can turn to liquids. Not vice versa.
FstCavZ24 wrote:When my friend installed his meth kit on his TT GTO he lost nearly 50whp, once it was tuned for meth he picked up 17whp.
That is one of the points I had made that he completely ignored.
JGM T-SHIRTS!!!!
In Loving Memory of Phil Martin December 14 2005
Alexis: Dustin, you're ghey, lol. I am better. I have tits, and tits rule all.
I've been watching this & I've got a few cents to add...
If you're worried about heat-soak of the inlet air charge, consider this: A larger blower turning at a slower speed than you have yours turning now will create the same level of boost. If it's turning the same speed as yours is turning now it will create more but without the the same level of heat-soak. Why? Because the larger blower (Obviously) is able to move more air than the smaller one for a given RPM, and the less RPMs a blower needs to see to move "X" amount of air the cooler it will operate. And the cooler the charge will be because of an improved a simple thing known as the adiabatic-state (Where no heat is created or generated) improves. This would be more worth-while than adding something that you need to constantly monitor.
The reason GM dialed-back the ignition timing so much in the reflash is for durability reasons. They were afraid they'd lose too much money on warranty claims from idiots who pushed the car too hard or ran too low of octane in it. I've seen it happen in the past. I once knew a middle-aged woman who got hold of a new '87 LeBaron Turbo, and within a week it's SMEC (Single Module Electronic Control) had a nervous breakdown trying to adjust the timing to compensate for the knock it saw because she ran 87-octane (Yes, 87-octane!). The dealer replaced it & informed her that she should have run it on Shell SU-2000 (Shell's premium unleaded at the time, and the best unleaded at the time) because that's what the car was tuned on from the factory. She did & never had a problem since.
And if you're gonna fool-around with alcohol, I suggest you screw the methanol-injection & convert to run on E85. You'd get the same results, if not better.
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Well... Im not gonna lie to ya, I have already purchased a kit and its being shipped as we speak. The "main" reason I bought it is bcuz my buddy who is extremely knowledgeable in the performance department told me that it would further reduce the risk of detonation. Which seemed like a good idea seeing as this is my daily driver, my only daily driver. I didn't actually think I would lose power. But...When I purchased the kit they asked for the Hp of my car for nozzle sizing so Hopefully I get some more balls out of this. Also any recommendation on getting this thing tuned? Hp Tuners my best bet?
Oh hell, Good info from all. I thought I had an idea of what I was doing but apparently not. *&^%
Nickelin Dimer wrote:And if you're gonna fool-around with alcohol, I suggest you screw the methanol-injection & convert to run on E85. You'd get the same results, if not better.
At the expense of lower miles per gallon. In Southern CA there is exactly one place to get E85, the next closest pump is outside of Las Vegas.
Theres 2 in Canada...and guess what.
Well, the whole tt gto is a horse of a whole other color for a few reasons. 1. Turboes and centrifical blowers don't heat soak in the way that single screw roots style blowers do. 2. Turboes have piping which can aid in heat distribution and dissipation which differs based on what material is used. 3. I would hope that a tt gto has an intercooler to begin with!
The idea behind a bigger blower, altho true isn't very applicable. There aren't any main stream, mass produced m62 or m90 kits for the LD9.
As stated above, e85 isn't the easiest thing to come by.
The whole detonation thing with the timing that gm pulls in the ecu was my point.
At the end of the day, you will do fine with the methanol kit and it will do what you want it to do and that's keep your car from exploding. Get used to filling it up and not running out (you can get low volume lights that tell you when you are low). You can probably heat the meth motor running and as long as you DON'T use a variable speed system the meth motor should be reliable. Once you get used to it, drop in a 2.6 pulley. Just don't do what wade did at the bash! lol! That cost me half my day! Hahahaha! It was fun tho, I like to fix other peoples cars!
Hey guys, our cars have ENGINES, not Motors.
And its fuel not gas, right?
And its correct not right, correct?
Are they wheels or rims?
Hood or bonnet?
Either way u knew what we were talking about! So screw you hippie!
Actually, the Serie-II Ecotecs (The ones Saab uses) have proven to make much more power operating on "E" than gasoline. And with less consumption under moderate to heavy load.
Funny... In a state that's affirmative in "going-green" there aren't that many "green" fuel suppliers available. Makes me glad to live in Illinois. I can think of at least 3 stations that supply it within stone's-throw of me. But then, that's like living in Texas during the '50s in terms of getting gasoline, isn't it?
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
