I am working on my 99 sunfire 2200ohv 4spd auto
I have put on a 4-1 pacesetter header, highflow cat, 2.5" magnaflow catback, Injen CAI, Underdrive pullies and RK sport poly motor mounts, now what is my next point of attack?
I know the head is restrictive but I want to wait a little while before I get that all out and done, I was thinking of a bigger throttle body because it seems like it is choking for air at high rpm. After that I was wondering if ignition upgrades are worth a damn for a N/A motor? Once spring comes around I am planning on getting a cam with all the goodies ( pushrods, lifters, hd valve springs, etc. ) and getting either a race head, or getting my head worked. Let me know what you guys think of my plan of attack if you have any better ideas or suggestions let me know.
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now what is my next point of attack?
Good question but that all lies into what your power goals are and how much you want to spend.
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I know the head is restrictive but I want to wait a little while before I get that all out and done
It's very restrictive. You can ask The Flying Skwirl about it...he did the headwork and it was totally worth it.
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I was thinking of a bigger throttle body because it seems like it is choking for air at high rpm.
That's more than likely cause of your head. Putting a bigger throttle body will only do so much...remember, your cylinder head is the ultimate factor of how much air actual goes inside your motor.
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After that I was wondering if ignition upgrades are worth a damn for a N/A motor?
Yes. Gravana Tuning sells Magnecor wires and they help a good amount (
Linky).
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Once spring comes around I am planning on getting a cam with all the goodies ( pushrods, lifters, hd valve springs, etc. ) and getting either a race head, or getting my head worked.
Well remember, your camshaft is almost part of your bottom end so it's a bit of work to swap it out, not as easy like the DOHC motors. If I were you, I'd purchase the Patriot Performance P & P Head (
www.patriot-performance.com), purchase all the valvetrain parts yourself from JBP (
www.jbodyperformance.com) and have it installed. You guys have it easy cause you need half the parts we do (you guys have 8 valves unlike our 16 valves), so that's half the amount you'd have to spend and easier to work with.
If you have anymore questions, just ask.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
throttle body worth the $200 or no? also what kind of mm should I get like 58 or 59mm or what?
btw thanks for those sites that helps
you can get the ones off the 2.3 and it shows a little difference i did the swap on mine and it was okay but without doing the head as NJHK said it doesnt mean much. i just did it cause i had the tb laying around the garage from a previouse parts car i had.
Your TB will flow more than enough air for a stock N/A motor. You would end up loosing torque by going to a larger TB at this time and your head will still be the restricting factor in the top end HP.
As for the 2.5" exhaust, that too is too big for this small of a motor, that big is good for a boosted motor.
Rember bigger is not alwas better! I don't care what SCC says!
Too big cases a loss of air/fuel and exhaust gas velocity killing low end torque, resulting in a slower car. All the parts must be matched to the goals of the car, intake ,TB,head,exhaust, cam, gears, torque converter, etc... Failing to match all the parts is what happens to most who try to their 2.2/2200s faster, resulting in a slower car! This frustrates them then they quit!
that is a load of crap, just like gutting your cat will make your car lose torque, guess what I've done it in my trans am, and now my sunfire and it lost no torque and gained a ton of top end, and as far as the exhaust goes the pace setter header I installed matched with the magnaflow 2.5" catback gained me a ton of torque and a good bit of top end, drive the car and you would know
remember, you cant argue with results, plus that way my exhaust is big enough so if i decide to go boosted I dont have to F with my exhaust again
if you decide to go boosted, the front half of your setup is a waste anyway.
I'm not too sure if anything MadJack says is a load of crap. He's right.
The engine just doesn't flow enough air through it to constitute a 2.5" exhaust system. If you were making a reasonable amount of power with some sort of forced induction, then I could see why you'd need something larger.
ignorance is what usually gives you gains from TB's... spending the kind of money you would on a throttle body, you have to justify it by 'thinking' you've gained something when you've really lost.
Get a bigger TB when you're drawing more air then your stocker can handle. ie: forced induction
correct me if i'm wrong buy the front half of my exhaust ( ie header and downpipe ) would be able to still be used if I was running a supercharged setup, or a nitrous setup, not all boosted setups have to be turbo's right?
Lager TBs, exhast and gutted Cats make the car sound deeper and louder. many people think its faster just because of the sound. Did you do a before and after pass on the drag strip(same day,under the same weather conditions) or dyno? Thats the only way to know if you really made any gains.
With what youve listed you should gain some top end HP, but are you any quicker off the line? You've lost the torque that gets you off the line for a quicker ET. Hp is for your trap speed. That is,unless you've changed your gearing to match your power-band.
As was in some-one's Sig, "Sound doesn't make power, power makes sound!"
Yeah I have some access to a dyno jet from my buddies that work down t he road from me, I dynoed it with stock exhaust and the with the header, gutted cat, and catback and it picked up about 10hp with it, it definitely gained torque too, whether you believe that or not, it spins tires alot easier and just has a much better take off all around, I am not trying to fight with you guys here or anything, just saying gains are gains. And my big point I am trying to get across is that gutting your cat will not lose your torque, that is an old wives tale, dyno proven.
As far as the throttle body I was simply asking if it was worth the money thats all, I didnt put a TB on my car yet.
Brett Dixon wrote:Yeah I have some access to a dyno jet from my buddies that work down t he road from me, I dynoed it with stock exhaust and the with the header, gutted cat, and catback and it picked up about 10hp with it, it definitely gained torque too, whether you believe that or not, it spins tires alot easier and just has a much better take off all around, I am not trying to fight with you guys here or anything, just saying gains are gains. And my big point I am trying to get across is that gutting your cat will not lose your torque, that is an old wives tale, dyno proven.
As far as the throttle body I was simply asking if it was worth the money thats all, I didnt put a TB on my car yet.
If you're trying to tell me that gutting a
non-clogged cat will
gain you any kind of power over-all, I'm going to have to laugh. Granted, some OEM cats can be relatively restrictive, most nowadays have been designed to minimize restrictions (I've never cracked open an OEM J or F cat, so no specifics there). Gutting a cat causes turbulence in the exhaust, which lowers it's velocity, and aids in destroying our environment...it's a lose-lose situation. Also, please show us all this 'dyno-proof'.
Also, with this kind of attitude:
Brett Dixon wrote:that is a load of crap
I'm surprised anyone is trying to help you at all.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
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I'm surprised anyone is trying to help you at all.
Agreed. It seems like every bit of advice someone is giving he tries to discredit it...whatever.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
well F*** you all then I didnt ask for people to bash on my exhaust system and act like I dont know @!#$ about cars, gutting the cat gives a noticeable gain in power and if you wanna argue with it suck my c*** I am sick of you all having your own prick ass attitude on here
Deffinately a bad attitude! He seems to know enough to go ahead on his own though. There's no more bolt ons for him besides motor and tranny mounts (unless he has these also). As said the stock TB is great for a n/a motor and you don't need to go larger until you start cramming more air into your engine.
Head as also said is very restrictive, I can tell you first hand as I've had mine ported for about 4yrs now.
Flywheel and clutch would help tremendous (stall converter if auto)
LSD would help......
Roller Rockers would do good and would be a pretty straight forward install.
Taking out dead weight in the car would be a free easy way to get a tad faster.
N2O + Bolt-ons
= 220Hp/
250Tq
Coming Soon:HpTunersPro, EagleConnectingRods, WiescoPistons, 13sec2200
Brett Dixon wrote:well F*** you all then I didnt ask for people to bash on my exhaust system and act like I dont know @!#$ about cars, gutting the cat gives a noticeable gain in power and if you wanna argue with it suck my c*** I am sick of you all having your own prick ass attitude on here
Calm down...
First of all, look at the way you respond to people. This is an online forum where we discuss something. Yes, everyone has their own opinion but coming in here and saying "that's a load of crap" when someone says something you don't agree with is a sign of a bad attitude. If you don't agree with what someone says, you discuss it in a mature manner and not try and discredit people like they don't know what they are talking about. This is not the first the topic that people don't agree on something.
If you don't know how to come back at people with a mature manner, then maybe you can't handle peoples opinions. I get questioned by people all the time and sometimes insulted but I don't respond back with comments like "suck my c***k" or "f**k all you then".
We were never here being pricks but just pointing out your own attitude that you're displaying. If you can't handle opinions than maybe you should leave. If you can handle it, stay and learn and discuss with the rest of us in a mature manner.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
It pisses me off when people argue with results, my Trans am was a dyno proven 7rwhp with a gutted cat ( with a pipe shoved through of course, so there was no turbulence ), the sunfire is probaly a few less but still I am irritated easily by this arguement, gutting your cat ( when done properly ) does show a gain.
Excuse my attitude I apologize, just understand where I am coming from.
Brett Dixon wrote:It pisses me off when people argue with results, my Trans am was a dyno proven 7rwhp with a gutted cat ( with a pipe shoved through of course, so there was no turbulence ), the sunfire is probaly a few less but still I am irritated easily by this arguement, gutting your cat ( when done properly ) does show a gain.
Excuse my attitude I apologize, just understand where I am coming from.
I understand where you're coming from. See, those dyno #s are your numbers BUT that reflects what you've done on your application and not neccesarily what will happen in other peoples applications. Also, if you have other modifications, your gains (if any) will vary.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
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just like gutting your cat will make your car lose torque,
its a proven fact that it will.... it slows exhaut velocity.
you claim you have felt a differnce? i make the statement from seeing dyno after dyno done on this at www.agileauto.com
thats why people implement test pipes, so there is no hollow extra room for exhaust to expand into....
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I dynoed it with stock exhaust and the with the header, gutted cat, and catback and it picked up about 10hp
well think about it...
you enlarged the runners, opened the rear of the exhaust and put on a free flowing muffler....
your testing was done stock VS aftermarket system. no wonder you gained power......
however you did not do a reg functioning high flow cat VS a gutted one, VS a test pipe.
that 10HP with whatever torque would have undoubtedly been higher as exhaust velocity would have been higher as well, with either the test pipe (straight piece of pipe) or the correctly functioning cat which serves as an area to reheat cooled exhaust gasses.
i agree with most all the rest on the TB.... unless all your racing is done at top end, you are boosted, or have an agressive cam, higher lift, etc.... dont sweat the bigger TB...
if you must have one to add to the mod list...then atleast read the post on volumetric efficiency, which will help you on choosing one.... its called "110% volumetric efficiency" if you bother to search for it. easy task.
also these two statements you made:
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because it seems like it is choking for air at high rpm
and
just like gutting your cat will make your car lose torque, guess what I've done it in my trans am, and now my sunfire and it lost no torque and gained a ton of top end
how can you gain a ton of top end, but then say you car is choking?
my point being is that the velocity you lost from a gutted cat plays a part in your car feeling its choking at top end as well.
real simply analogy since cars are like humans which both eat and then take craps, aka intake and then exhaust....
if you car isnt getting rid of the exhaust efficient enough, especially at top end when theres way more to get rid of, then its no different than a human being CONSTIPATED and trying to run a race.
you can sit around saying its a load of crap, but anyone who has done any research or have any experience with dynos other than stock vs aftermarket, will tell you that gutted cats cut down on your power, low end and top end and all throughout the band.
and theres no way in blue hell, you can compare the performance of a v-6 or 8 to a 4 cylinder. besides the fact that they do the suck squish bang blow, different engines run in different manners. call Lingenfelter Performance and verify that. theyve helped me out a bit on the engine rebuild i am doing and i;ve learned alot from em.
any sport compact making any DECENT HP, will tell you a test pipe is the way to go if you plan to run without the cat.... which basically you are doing.
hell for those that are smart enough and still want the appearance of a cat, they simply install a pipe through their gutted cat, which gives the look for inspection, but gives the flow of a straight pipe. for those that have enough mods some warrant the use of this....
but that is what I did that is what I'm trying to explain here.
1. Removed the cat
2. Gutted with a big ass masonry drill bit
3. Took a similar size pipe and hammered it through the cat
4. Installed the "cat" back onto the piping of the car
5. Welded
It looks like I have a cat, but it is a straight through pipe
Brett Dixon wrote:but that is what I did that is what I'm trying to explain here.
1. Removed the cat
2. Gutted with a big ass masonry drill bit
3. Took a similar size pipe and hammered it through the cat
4. Installed the "cat" back onto the piping of the car
5. Welded
It looks like I have a cat, but it is a straight through pipe
highflow / catback > ^
I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.
Brett Dixon wrote:but that is what I did that is what I'm trying to explain here.
1. Removed the cat
2. Gutted with a big ass masonry drill bit
3. Took a similar size pipe and hammered it through the cat
4. Installed the "cat" back onto the piping of the car
5. Welded
It looks like I have a cat, but it is a straight through pipe
ok, deal then...
but saying "gutted" cat usually refers to just gutting it, which is probably why most said what they did from your initial responses...
my bad, mis communication then, I wouldnt just gut it and leave it like that though, I am aware of turbulent air and the effect it would have, sorry about the miscommunication tho
Brett Dixon wrote:my bad, mis communication then, I wouldnt just gut it and leave it like that though, I am aware of turbulent air and the effect it would have, sorry about the miscommunication tho
Well, that makes it even more funny that you're telling me to F off because I was telling you what you already knew. If you're running a test pipe, it's not 'gutted', and as you've now acknowledged, 'gutting' it will do harm. It's too bad you have such a piss-poor attitude, as you seem to be somewhat intelligent.
(does anyone else have a flashback to the 110% VE thread where someone *cough*jackalope*cough*
wasn't clear enough with what he was saying
)
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
