Hey folks.
I have a general performance question, and I'd like a bit of input if anyone has done this... I'm planning on building a G35 with either a centrifugal S/C or twin turbos, get the rotating assembly blueprinted... the works basically... done in stages obviously.
In order to really make the most of the upgrades longevity, I'm thinking very seriously about cryogenically treating all the rotating parts, heads, block, maybe even the intake plenum and the plenum spacer I'm planning on installing if I go with the S/C. Also, if it's worth it, I plan on doing the brake rotors, the rear differential parts and housing, and transmission parts and housing as well.
Obviously, I'm planning on a longer build time, and to compliment the cryo-treating, I also plan on deburring everything, and for the major rotating parts (ie crank, cams, transmission parts) and their bearings I'm planning on getting them shot peened to further strengthen the parts.
I want to know from anyone that has done this or knows enough about it:
- What are the costs? (is it done per part? by weight?) What's the average turn around time?
- Who does a good job at a reasonable price? (I also need references on good shot-peening companies as well, these can also be aviation/marine shot-peeners, I'm not picky
)
- Is it worth it to do to a car that will see mostly street time and maybe a few turns at the track? (Solo/SCCA mainly, Drag racing isn't my thing)
I'm not looking for responses telling me I don't need to do it, none of us NEEDS to mod their cars in the first place...
If anyone can give some information I would really appreciate it, thanks in advance!
If it's not network news, it's probably the truth getting out.
Some people are like slinkies: Not really good for anything,
but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them
down a flight of stairs.
I've never had things cryo'd myself, but it's priced moderately expensive. You'll just have to search for local shops in your area that do cryo work
I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.
We do it on most of our race car parts - its worth doing it on anything.
Our Late Model has especially shown much better brake rotor wear and the 2-speed tranny stopped breaking the case around the input shaft bearing. Its also looking pretty good on the flywheel too, although we had another problem that messed it up part way through the season.
Its actually pretty cheap - you can do an entire motor for under $200. It usually runs us about $150 for a few engine parts, gears, and some suspension components from the sprint and the late model. Alot of our parts are bought pre-cryo'd from Flatlander and Speedway...
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
Ahh good...
I had fig'd on about $1000 for the Motor, crank and drivetrain parts, and then the Shot-peening at about $1200 or so, and just do the de-burring myself (or get the engine shop to do it...). I don't know of any local/in-province shops that do it, so I figured I'd be driving them down to wherever in the US... No biggie.
If it's that cheap, I'll probably get the Turbos and headers done as well. I'd rather get everything done in one fell swoop than do it piecemeal. I'm not planning on running obscene amounts of boost either, I just want something that'll be rock solid forever.
Thanks for the input!
If it's not network news, it's probably the truth getting out.
Some people are like slinkies: Not really good for anything,
but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them
down a flight of stairs.
This is the place I was going to go with:
CTP
but if RoboGeek is getting a complete engine done for $200, 300below may not be a bad idea (although CTP regularly bashes them)
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
actually we use a small machine company that builds our billet parts - its one of the services they offer to sprint car teams. They use it for some of their chassis parts like heim joints, torsion bars, bird cages and jacobs ladders. They'll do small batches for us. We usually do about 200-300lbs at a time max
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:If one company is bashing the other, I don't usually go to the bash-er... It's in poor taste.
True, but they back their bashing up. I've only had one class in materials engineering, but I know what crap 300below spews on their website. Luckily, it's all about the machine and the process, they don't need to understand what is going on on the atomic scale to treat the parts correctly. However, if they are at the same price range, then I'll probably go with CTP after all.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
RoboGeek: Jacob's Ladders? Like the arcing kind?
OHV notec: I haven't seen either of the sites yet, but I'm pretty sure I don't want to deal with one place that overtly bashes another... I don't want to deal with a classless company. If they have the best process, that's great: Stand on your reputation... but slamming another company to make yours look good is right around childish @!#$... like grade 3-4 stuff. I see something like that, and all the numbers and figures mean very little, they aren't good sales people, and it calls into question their integrity (at least in my mind).
Either way, now that I have a good feel for the pricing, I can at least plan my build a little more accurately.
If it's not network news, it's probably the truth getting out.
Some people are like slinkies: Not really good for anything,
but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them
down a flight of stairs.
Cryo treatment is a great process for anything under large stresses or thermal cycling.
But there are some parts that really don't need any attention, like the acutal heads, block intake manifold, plenum spacer, stuff like that.
The heads and block should be fine unless you are pushing the upper limits of their power holding potential, which I know is quite high on the g35/z v6 engine. Same with the intake manifold and other non stressed parts, only thing you will do is spend some extra money.
If you are using the stock rotating assembly I would cryo it, but it seems that there is lots of aftermarket support for the engine, and you should be able to get upgraded forged parts.
Drivetrain cryo treatments is where the process really shines. Since these parts are highly stressed, shock loaded and the load reverse many times, this process really helps the fatigue life of the parts.
As far as companies bashing each other, I never do business with either of the companies. Its un-professional, childish and a waste of time. If their product is really better then their reputation will proceed them, they will have loyal customers that come back to them and bring in new customers. You don't see Boieng talking @!#$ about Airbus or vice versa. They just build great airplanes and let the buyers decide. Thats how real business is done.
1988 Pontiac Fiero, engine transplant underway.
2004 ECOtec, built and boosted
Quote:
RoboGeek: Jacob's Ladders? Like the arcing kind?
More like
this kind
Cryo is good on blocks and heads too. It makes the metal more stable and it holds a hone alot longer. Do the cryo before any machining though.. it doesn't really matter but its a superstition of mine.. lol
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
Thought you meant
this kind
From what I'd read, you deburr first, because that part becomes a lot harder after cryo.
Hunter: The parts you listed would be getting it anyhow because the treatment releases internal stresses on the metal, and helps stop warpage... I know it's not likely on a block, or a head or what not, but, I'm looking to run nominal boost, and dial it up on demand, and have no problems even with 18+lbs of boost (understood that I'd need to upgrade the fuel system...).
The same goes for the Turbo exhaust housing, compressor wheel assembly and headers. The cryo-treatment would be done to help out the warpage/expansion issue... on all the shafts though, the shot-peening would be done to further increase durability because it smooths out the surface imperfections by compacting the surface into a more uniform surface.
If it's not network news, it's probably the truth getting out.
Some people are like slinkies: Not really good for anything,
but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them
down a flight of stairs.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Thought you meant this kind
From what I'd read, you deburr first, because that part becomes a lot harder after cryo.
Hunter: The parts you listed would be getting it anyhow because the treatment releases internal stresses on the metal, and helps stop warpage... I know it's not likely on a block, or a head or what not, but, I'm looking to run nominal boost, and dial it up on demand, and have no problems even with 18+lbs of boost (understood that I'd need to upgrade the fuel system...).
The same goes for the Turbo exhaust housing, compressor wheel assembly and headers. The cryo-treatment would be done to help out the warpage/expansion issue... on all the shafts though, the shot-peening would be done to further increase durability because it smooths out the surface imperfections by compacting the surface into a more uniform surface.
Internal stresses in blocks and heads normally get sorted out within the first 100miles of normal engine operation. Unless you are using a "virgin" casting, you won't see much from cryo-treatment except a lighter wallet. Blocks rarley warp and when they do, bad casting or poor engine design is normally the culprit. Same goes for heads. Heads do warp, but it is normally from extreme combustion chamber temps, detonation or other bad bad things. Any amount of cryo won't save them.
I would save your money for upgrading other parts more likely to fail, liek the internals.
As for turbine housings/compressor wheels/and all the shafts.....these parts are not seeing large strains on them in a properly designed system. Turbine housings shouldn't be having to worry about failing from structual stress put on them. They deal with one stress, thermal. Cast iron and Ni-resist do a damn good job of that.
Compressor wheels.....no structural stress should EVER be imposed on them. They are made to move air and that is it. Same goes for the turbo shafts. They spin, have thrust bearings or ball bearing to take any side loads and use a film of oil to keep them from metal to metal contact. Shot peening will not do much either, since there are no loads supposed to be on the shafts. Plus, the shafts are machined and shot peening them after that will just cause the bearings to fail.
I guess what I am trying to say, is that you need to look at what kind of loads and stresses a part is seeing and then use methods that tailor to reducing those loads or increasing its strength in that area. You wouldn't shot peen a block to make it stronger would you? You wouldn't want to heat treat a turbine wheel when it will literally get cooked out of it during the first hard dyno run.
1988 Pontiac Fiero, engine transplant underway.
2004 ECOtec, built and boosted
Well, you wouldn't shot peen a BLOCK.. but, wherever there's a possibility for metal to metal contact, shot peening will smooth out the surface, and make it easier for oil to lubricate, and consequently, decrease the amount of wear. So, the block itself, no, but the journal bearings (or linings? I'm not good on the terminology) and cylinder sleeves would benefit... My main goal is to increase their durability: hence, all parts get cryotreatment to make the metal less susceptible to fatigue, and major wear parts get shot peened to improve their wear characteristics.. Shot peening, you're ultimately pounding the surface of the metal into a smoother surface as opposed to machining it, which allows for more material to make scratches and ultimately scuffing and scoring of contact surfaces. Again, I'm looking to make this engine bullet proof for hundreds of thousands of miles without a major failure replacement in the drivetrain.
The thing is, you can't "cook out" the cryo-treatment. You actually heat up the part after you deep-freeze it if you are doing the treatment properly. As I said, you're releasing internal stresses left over from casting and machining. Also, consider that I live in an area where we get all four seasons in abundance (ie. hotter than Miami in the summer, and colder than Moscow in the winter.. not exaggerating), so, temperature treating the parts is a good idea.
If it's not network news, it's probably the truth getting out.
Some people are like slinkies: Not really good for anything,
but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them
down a flight of stairs.
Who told you that shot peening the journals or cylinder bores was a good thing?
Shot peening will not make smoother surfaces for bearings than machining and polishing. Period.
Shot peening is used for reducing the amount of strees risers in a piece of metal that sees lots of stress's. You should peen rod to help compact the outer metal which doesn't allow stress risers to form and start cracks. It makes the metal harder, which in turn makes it stronger. But it will be come more brittle. On rods and things that shot peening does, it won't matter because you don't see huge shock loadings on rods.
I suggest you read up a bit more on these processes, talk to machinist's and people who cryo treating for a living.(This is just advice, not a knock on you)
And, you can cook out the cryo treatment on a turbine wheel. The turbine wheel can get 1500+ degrees on a hard dyno run. This is enough heat to raise steel and Ni-resist, which are the materials turbine wheels are made of, past the point of interganular structural chagnes. It will get so hot that the metals grains will change shape and size, and when they cool they will crystallize in a different form that changes the metals strength, fatigue and wear properties. This will defeat the purpose of the cryo treatment, which does the same kind of thing.
If you have more questions, feel free to email me, or message me on yahoo or AOL, itsall on my profile. Ciao
1988 Pontiac Fiero, engine transplant underway.
2004 ECOtec, built and boosted
I'm wondering if you can cryo ceramic?
I am a big fan and user of Nissan ball bearing turbos. Most of them use ceramic turbine shafts and wheels (lightest material available) It the cryo process could strengthen the turbine wheel, it may be possible to hit above 15 lbs of boost on a ceramic wheel instead of converting to a stainless wheel. I'll be looking in to this.
How do you bring an entire engine? Do you cryotreat the engine built with all the gaskets already in place or piece by piece?
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Hunter wrote:Who told you that shot peening the journals or cylinder bores was a good thing?
Shot peening will not make smoother surfaces for bearings than machining and polishing. Period.
I've seen the electron microscope slide differences between a polished item and a shotpeened one. The difference is like comparing the rocky mountains with the great plains.
Quote:
Shot peening is used for reducing the amount of strees risers in a piece of metal that sees lots of stress's. You should peen rod to help compact the outer metal which doesn't allow stress risers to form and start cracks. It makes the metal harder, which in turn makes it stronger. But it will be come more brittle. On rods and things that shot peening does, it won't matter because you don't see huge shock loadings on rods.
If you're flattening the surface (per previous), you're making it harder to wear down the outer layer, wouldn't that stand to reason?
http://www.shotpeener.com/learning/spo.pdf <-- Item 1.1
You're not making it brittle, you're actually making the outer layer more pliable.
Quote:
I suggest you read up a bit more on these processes, talk to machinist's and people who cryo treating for a living.(This is just advice, not a knock on you)
I have... I know an aviation engineer (the joys of that tin ring on your pinky)... said that shotpeen/cryo high friction items increases service life and durability... Cryo only for the items that have to deal with shearing stresses. I'm a comp. Eng, but, from what little I've read... it makes sense.
Quote:
And, you can cook out the cryo treatment on a turbine wheel. The turbine wheel can get 1500+ degrees on a hard dyno run. This is enough heat to raise steel and Ni-resist, which are the materials turbine wheels are made of, past the point of interganular structural chagnes. It will get so hot that the metals grains will change shape and size, and when they cool they will crystallize in a different form that changes the metals strength, fatigue and wear properties. This will defeat the purpose of the cryo treatment, which does the same kind of thing.
Which would necessitate either an external cooling source, or, a complimenting treatment of the compressor wheel?
The kit I'm looking at from Greddy (assuming I go with twin turbos), is rated for about 700 HP... which is WAY over what I want to shoot for. I figure, it it fails at somepoint, I'll have only myself or the tuning shop to blame...
Quote:
If you have more questions, feel free to email me, or message me on yahoo or AOL, itsall on my profile. Ciao
Cool. I don't use IM's (WAY too insecure) but email is doable.
If it's not network news, it's probably the truth getting out.
Some people are like slinkies: Not really good for anything,
but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them
down a flight of stairs.
*edited broken quote* jz
Post Edited (12-12-05 6:33 AM)
Great article.
But it still doesn't mention shot peeing cylinder bores or bearing journals. On the crank shaft, yes the fillet area would benefit greatly from the shot peening process. But not the acutal pin or the bearings that hold the crankshaft. Same with the connecting rods. After they are shot peened, they are machined round.
I didn't see anthing about the part becoming more pliable. I know for sure the the part will become harder on the surface, which in most cases will cause the material to be more brittle.
I agree that shot peening will increase fatigue life of parts it is applied to, as well as cryo treatment, but you have to look at what the part is used for and decide if it will really help.
Heat transfer from the turbine side of the turbo to the compressor side is not great. The turbine housing holds ost of the hea, and good turbo's have watercooled bearing housings, which takes the heat that is fransfered from the turbine into the shaft into the oil into the water...so I guess that is the extrenal cooling source. If its not watercooled then the oil does that job, its just not as good and will break down faster, meaning more frequent oil changing. The compressor wheel won't need any treatments because they cool fast bieng made of aluminum, and sucking in cool air to compress.
Instead of spending money on cryoing and peening stock rods, sell the stock ones, and buy some billet or forged 4340 rods with ARP hardware. Buy some forged JE pistons, tool steel pins and get the crank balanced with them. You should be good.
1988 Pontiac Fiero, engine transplant underway.
2004 ECOtec, built and boosted
Hey GAM, have you ever considered having yourself cryogenically frozen, the rethawed at a time when everybody doesnt hink you arent a complete tool?
Bastard cop quit being a dick!!! GOSH!
Drew, ever considered not posting if you have nothing to add to the discussion?
Do you wake up and decide to be a complete jerk, or is it just a personality tick?
If it's not network news, it's probably the truth getting out.
Some people are like slinkies: Not really good for anything,
but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them
down a flight of stairs.
OK you do not Cryo treat a block, head or intake manifold.If you want to make sure the block and heads dont warp, develop a better cooling system. You are waisting your money there. You only Cryo treat the rotating assembly if anything. But why not just buy forged parts that will just stand up to the abuse regardless? Look at a company like Keith Black, they manufacture Blocks for top fuelers, they do not cryo treat the blocks
. Seeing as a top fueler makes more power in on cylinder then you will make on your whole motor I think its good lol.
As for shot peening, you do not shot peen cylinder walls or any bearing journals. It is not a bad Idea, it is a horrible Idea. A Cylinder wall for one has to be properly honed as per the pistons and rings you are using. This will allow it to wear properly. Now you need the cylinder walls and rings to wear properly in order to seat (or seal). Ok now if you shot peen a journal surface in theory you are gonna cause the tolerances to increase since you are reducing the amout of mass. Motors have tolerance's to the thousanth of an inch, dont mess with that. You are asking for trouble. You shot peen the main body of the rods, thats it. But again if you are building a motor with such high boost, why not run forged rods that can handle the pressures.
If you are thinking about modifiing a Turbo, talk to a guy like Bill Hahn, he know his "poo".
Also I have a friend whom is an Aviation engineer also, and frankly his ideas of what I should do to a motor (some simmilar to your) are just bad. Granted they work with some serious tolerances but when you compare a turbo jet motor to an automotive internal combustion they are nothing a like. Granted they also have to know rotary piston engines which are similar but differing theorys that I have seen.
2002 Z28: Slp coldair Pac, Corsa Catback, 3200 stall
