I just put a used engine (40k) on it into my car, when I drive it, it has no power at all, my fuel milage has gone down over %40, my top end is around 95-100 mph, at it takes almost two miles to get there. The shop said my cat was burnt and they removed it, would that have anything to do with it? (my car also sounds like ass)

at idle the car has a loud rattle coming from the timing chain area, but if I raise it off idle then it goes away, I had a new water pump put in too, is it possible the timing is off? (would it even run then)

any ideas or questions would be great, thanks guys





HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

The big question is what engine are you using a 2.2 or a 2.4 ? Yes the engine would still run if the timing was off a little . If the timing chain was off on either engine would and could cause your engine to run crappy .

Did the garage change the timing chain ? Did they check the tensioner or guides when they did ?


<a href="http://users.adelphia.net/~rdbryant1/index.html.html"><img src="http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/mrgoodwrench/personal_pic.jpg" border=4></a>

sounds like timing is off a tooth

yah they said it look fine, I tried new bosch plugs cause thats all I have time for, it made a huge difference on the top end, still laking lots on the bottom. any clues? would it still have good high enf if the chain was off? This sucks, but it's kinda better.

any more ideas? I have my old engine so if I need any sensors, those are free to try....


HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

If you havnt checked the timeing yourself to be sure, please dont buy anymore stuff that you dont need. That is the first place to start.

I searched around, were do I find methods of performing this check my self? do I have to pull that motor mount and the cover? exactly where are the marks supposed to be? is there a simpler way to check, maybe compression? When I bought it they said it was 200 across all four.


HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

id say you rode in a your freinds corvette and then got back in your car and all of a sudden its really slow feeling...strange......... lol im just kidding.




2.2 OHV 2.4l coming soon
2.25 inch custom exhaust
WAI
RK Underdrive pulley
50 shot of NX
pacesetter header

i raced my brothers 105hp 2003 honda civic 4 doors auto, and he kicked my ass hard, it was like I didn't try, his wife and kids were in the car too, I was alone. (we only raced till 60mph, speed limit)

I almost cried,


HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

well no cat is not a good thing to do. The second O2 sensor will not have anything to read, and will throw a check engine light. That also explains the horrible sound. As for the performance, if it is a 2.4L, you need to pull the upper mount and the cover and look at the chain. Line up the crank sprocket dot with the dot on the block. There is a little hole in each cam sprocket which you can fit an M8 size bolt in to it. If the timing is correct, the bolt will pass through the gear and into a hole in the timing case. Oh, and make sure it is on the compression stroke (cam alignment holes will be at the bottom, not at the top.)




-da chinchilla

<img src="http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/jiggamon/avatar15569_2.gif">

WOW! that is the exact post I was looking for, thanks alot man, that is perfect, I'll do it tonight!!!




HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

Quote:

well no cat is not a good thing to do. The second O2 sensor will not have anything to read, and will throw a check engine light. That also explains the horrible sound.

BS, the cat has nothing to do with performance, its just an emissions thing. On my car now I am curently running no EGR or CAT. My car runs perfect too, no loss of power what so ever. I havent tripped a CEL due to me being catless.... All that thing reads anyways is the threshold of the cat converter. Meaning that when the converter is plugged or clogged, the gasses remain in the CAT and build up and so does heat. The second 02 sensor is heated and when the heat rises off of a scale that cant be determined, it trips a light. w/o a CAT your car is constantly flowing gasses and therefore keeping the sensor happy.....

Please stop misinforming people on this issue


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH

Um...nowhere did I say that no cat affects performance. I simply said it will set the CEL light because the sensor is not plugged in anymore. I don't know what it will do if it is still plugged in the pipe with no Cat, but everyone I know who has removed the cat has had the same result...a horrible exhaust sound, and a CEL. That is why they make the O2 simulator. So you can remove the cat without throwing a CEL. It is not misinformation, it is fact that removing the O2 sensor because of no cat will throw a CEL. It is also illegal and can carry a hefty fine.

Quotes from www.howstuffworks.com

Quote:

How do I know if my O2 sensor may be bad?

If your car has lost several miles per gallon of fuel economy and
the usual tune up steps do not improve it. This *is not* a
pointer to O2 failure, it just brings up the possibility. Vacuum
leaks and ignition problems are common fuel economy destroyers.
As mentioned by others, the on board computer may also set one of
several failure "codes". If the computer has issued a code
pertaining to the O2 sensor, the sensor and it's wiring should
be tested. Usually when the sensor is bad, the engine will show
some loss of power, and will not seem to respond quickly.

Also if you remove the sensor when you remove the cat ^^^^


And one for how it affects performance/economy if it is not hot enough (taken out)

Quote:

The sensor does not begin to generate it's full output until it
reaches about 600 degrees F. Prior to this time the sensor is
not conductive. It is as if the circuit between the sensor and
computer is not complete. The mid point is about 0.45 volts.
This is neither rich nor lean. A fully warm O2 sensor *will not
spend any time at 0.45 volts*. In many cars, the computer sends
out a bias voltage of 0.45 through the O2 sensor wire. If the
sensor is not warm, or if the circuit is not complete, the computer
picks up a steady 0.45 volts. Since the computer knows this is
an "illegal" value, it judges the sensor to not be ready. It
remains in open loop operation, and uses all sensors except the
O2 to determine fuel delivery. Any time an engine is operated
in open loop, it runs somewhat rich and makes more exhaust
emissions. This translates into lost power, poor fuel economy
and air pollution.

And some FYI on testing an O2 sensor...

Quote:

Testing O2 sensors that are installed

The engine must first be fully warm. If you have a defective
thermostat, this test may not be possible due to a minimum
temperature required for closed loop operation. Attach the
positive lead of a high impedence DC voltmeter to the Oxygen
sensor output wire. This wire should remain attached to the
computer. You will have to back probe the connection or use
a jumper wire to get access. The negative lead should be
attached to a good clean ground on the engine block or
accessory bracket. Cheap voltmeters will not give accurate
results because they load down the circuit and absorb the
voltage that they are attempting to measure. A acceptable
value is 1,000,000 ohms/volt or more on the DC voltage.
Most (if not all) digital voltmeters meet this need. Few
(if any) non-powered analog (needle style) voltmeters do.
Check the specs for your meter to find out. Set your meter
to look for 1 volt DC. Many late model cars use a heated
O2 sensor. These have either two or three wires instead of
one. Heated sensors will have 12 volts on one lead, ground
on the other, and the sensor signal on the third. If you have
two or three wires, use a 15 or higher volt scale on the meter
until you know which is the sensor output wire.

When you turn the key on, do not start the engine. You should
see a change in voltage on the meter in most late model cars. If
not, check your connections. Next, check your leads to make sure
you won't wrap up any wires in the belts, etc. then start the
engine. You should run the engine above 2000 rpm for two
minutes to warm the O2 sensor and try to get into closed loop.
Closed loop operation is indicated by the sensor showing several
cross counts per second. It may help to rev the engine between
idle and about 3000 rpm several times. The computer recognizes
the sensor as hot and active once there are several cross counts.

You are looking for voltage to go above and below 0.45 volts.
If you see less than 0.2 and more than 0.7 volts and the value
changes rapidly, you are through, your sensor is good. If not,
is it steady high (> 0.45) near 0.45 or steady low (< 0.45).
If the voltage is near the middle, you may not be hot yet. Run
the engine above 2000 rpm again. If the reading is steady low,
add richness by partially closing the choke or adding some propane
through the air intake. Be very careful if you work with any
extra gasoline, you can easily be burned or have an explosion.
If the voltage now rises above 0.7 to 0.9, and you can change it
at will by changing the extra fuel, the O2 sensor is usually good.

If the voltage is steady high, create a vacuum leak. Try pulling
the PCV valve out of it's hose and letting air enter. You can
also use the power brake vacuum supply hose. If this drives the
voltage to 0.2 to 0.3 or less and you can control it at will by
opening and closing the vacuum leak, the sensor is usually good.

If you are not able to make a change either way, stop the engine,
unhook the sensor wire from the computer harness, and reattach
your voltmeter to the sensor output wire. Repeat the rich and
lean steps. If you can't get the sensor voltage to change, and
you have a good sensor and ground connection, try heating it once
more. Repeat the rich and lean steps. If still no voltage or
fixed voltage, you have a bad sensor.

If you are not getting a voltage and the car has been running
rich lately, the sensor may be carbon fouled. It is sometimes
possible to clean a sensor in the car. Do this by unplugging
the sensor harness, warming up the engine, and creating a lean
condition at about 2000 rpm for 1 or 2 minutes. Create a big
enough vacuum leak so that the engine begins to slow down.
The extra heat will clean it off if possible. If not, it
was dead anyway, no loss. In either case, fix the cause of the
rich mixture and retest. If you don't, the new sensor will
fail.

Testing O2 sensors on the workbench.

Use a high impedence DC voltmeter as above. Clamp the sensor in
a vice, or use a plier or vice-grip to hold it. Clamp your
negative voltmeter lead to the case, and the positive to the
output wire. Use a propane torch set to high and the inner blue
flame tip to heat the fluted or perforated area of the sensor.
You should see a DC voltage of at least 0.6 within 20 seconds.
If not, most likely cause is open circuit internally or lead
fouling. If OK so far, remove from flame. You should see a
drop to under 0.1 volt within 4 seconds. If not likely silicone
fouled. If still OK, heat for two full minutes and watch for
drops in voltage. Sometimes, the internal connections will open
up under heat. This is the same a loose wire and is a failure.
If the sensor is OK at this point, and will switch from high to
low quickly as you move the flame, the sensor is good. Bear in
mind that good or bad is relative, with port fuel injection
needing faster information than carbureted systems.

ANY O2 sensor that will generate 0.9 volts or more when heated,
show 0.1 volts or less within one second of flame removal, AND
pass the two minute heat test is good regardless of age. When
replacing a sensor, don't miss the opportunity to use the test
above on the replacement. This will calibrate your evaluation
skills and save you money in the future. There is almost always
*no* benefit in replacing an oxygen sensor that will pass the
test in the first line of this paragraph.

Hope that clears some up. Just the basics. Or you can read the entire article HERE!!!

This may or may not be true if you remove the cat and leave the sensor in the pipe. I dont think that it will be reading the true efficiency and may still throw a code. I believe the computer compares the voltage of the upstream with the downstream to check the efficiency of the catalytic converter. So these numbers would be the same with no cat and would, in theory throw a code.








-da chinchilla

<img src="http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/jiggamon/avatar15569_2.gif">

Quote:

All that thing reads anyways is the threshold of the cat converter. Meaning that when the converter is plugged or clogged, the gasses remain in the CAT and build up and so does heat. The second 02 sensor is heated and when the heat rises off of a scale that cant be determined, it trips a light. w/o a CAT your car is constantly flowing gasses and therefore keeping the sensor happy.....

Umm.... you got the part right about how the CAT has nothing to do with performance and its just an emissions thing, but the second O2 sensor still reads air fuel ratio just like the first but it is set to detect a different scale. The first O2 sensor reads 0-1 volts and the second sould read about .5 volts if the CAT is operating correctly. Once the CAT is removed the second O2 sensor reads 0-1 volts and the computer then believes the the CAT is defective so it turns on the MIL. To eliminate the CAT and avoid the code just buy an O2 simulater from Jegs.



'99 2200 LS CX1 Sport