I am running on a clay oval and I need some more ideas to make the car go faster.
The rules say that the motor/trans/brakes are supposed to remain STOCK but as most of you know when there are rules...a hundred people like to break them to win. I am not into this throwing thousands of dollars into my car because there is no prize money involved, I just dont want to be eaten alive.
What are some thoughts on making the car pull harder out of the corners and handle better, plus add some horsepower without drawing a whole lot of attention from the tech guys.
Currently the motor/trans/brakes are stock with the exception of a Z24 strut brace. I have good wheels and tires, and new shocks and struts.
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Get yourself a nice quaffe differentual, and then also get your self a REALLY FATTY rear sway bar, like maybe the addco 1"er. That should battle that dam understeer quite a bit
also get some hawk hps pads, and some exhaust action.
Without seeing your track rules and knowing what your Tech Inspector look for, its hard to say what you can do or get away with.Here are are a few ideas that are hard to spot though:
With the 2.2L try looking into some stamped steel 1.6:1 rockers. The stock one are supposed to be 1.5:1, though if you measure they wont be that much. You could go with the ARP(#100-7221, 10mm base, 3/8" top, 2 ea.) and a set of Crane hardend steel rockers(#11802-16, set of 16). These will look stock, unless the tech has a really sharp eye. Stock lift is 0.430" w/ the 1.5's, with the 1.6's it will be 0.460" If they check your lift, just get the crane 1.5's(#11801-16), they'll be more ratio accurate and stiffer.
Are you running the 2bbl TBI? If so look into a TBI from a 2.8L V6. If it's the same, then try the 4.3's. If it's the 1 bbl then you're stuck.
As far as suspension, try preloading the sway bar. put a longer bolt and tube on the right side of the bar. This will add a little cross weight to the RF/LR.This is some thing you'll have to experiment with as far as how much longer the R side end link will have to be. Start with about 3/4" longer and try going up from there and see how it works.
It's late I'll think of more tomorrow and post it after work.
pull the head, get it shaved abit to up the compression, and do a port/polish job.. its really hard to say how in depth you can go without actually knowing what kind of tech you have. around here we have "stock" classes that really only "look" stock on the outside, open her up and
keep the bore the same do a re-ring, basically do a complete rebuild "working" as much of the stock components as possible, not only will you gain power but probably reliablity also.
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** Flat Broke Racing Inc.**
I don't agree with cheating. If you can't win w/o cheating, you shouldn't be racing. Also, where's the fun in winning if you do cheat. There's no pride in it. Just a worthless trophy. If you cheat and win, you didn't earn it.
I agree with Josh, I really dont want to cheat to win. The class was created to allow for low budget racing so normal people could build up some experience then be able to move up into the bigger cars. I do not have the budget to go all-out so I am really not into a new cam, The rules are as follows:
COMPETING MODELS - ELIGIBILITY
Any American made automobile. No convertibles, station wagons, jeeps, pickups, etc. Front wheel drive. Differential may be locked.
ENGINES
Four (4) cylinder engines only. Completely stock. NO performance parts of any kind allowed. Normally aspirated – no turbos. Rotary engines not permitted. Two (2) valves per cylinder. No port work on heads.
CARBURETOR
Stock carburetor. Fuel injection permitted if car came originally equipped as fuel
injection. If equipped with electric fuel pump, make sure pump is wired thru oil pressure switch. If vehicle is not equipped with a switch, it must be added. Two throttle return spring mandatory mounted to engine.
SUSPENSION
Stock OEM parts only. No slotting, drilling or cutting for purposes of changing adjustments in any suspension component.
STEERING
Stock steering for the make and model.
WHEELS, TIRES, BRAKES
Wheels: stock. Right front oversize lug nuts recommended. Wheel spacers are not permitted. Any DOT street legal tire permitted.
8 1/2" sidewall to sidewall max. Stock brake system for make and model. All brakes must function. No brake adjusters.
There you have it. Those are all that pertain to the drivetrain.
The head is in the shop getting milled down (the gasket blew last week) and they are going to clean it up a bit. I am going to flex hone it this weekend and put new rod bearings in it. New gaskets are a must.
I think what this will all come down to is a rebuild for a fresh motor. When this happens I will be getting a '94-'97 motor though.
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However, I will add that in the engine section of the rules the tech guys have been very loose about "stock" parts as long as they came off the same brand of car. For example: a friend of mine runs an 89 Daytona, a few thousand Daytonas in the 80's had a factory Holley carb. His didnt but he found one off another older car and put it on and that is ok. Thats why no one has a problem with me having a few Z24 parts (strut brace) because it is a factory part.
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Quote:
Differential may be locked.
You could try a phantom grip. I've heard mixed reviews about it.
Quote:
Stock OEM parts only. No slotting, drilling or cutting for purposes of changing adjustments in any suspension component.
Double layer your rear sway bar
I like that classing, not a whole lot you can do to the car.
The idea is great, but they are not enforcing anything unless it looks totally different to the naked eye. THE HOTTEST car to have is a 1986-1990 Ford Escort GT 1.9 HO. People have found so many things to do to this motor and it responds very well with bigger pistons and an aftermarket crank and cam. The downfall of the GT is the suspension and frame because the Escort was a weaker car than say a Cavalier. Plus with the shorter wheelbase and higher center of gravity they flip a lot easier.
Anyways. It is basically going to end two ways:
1. The tech guys tighten down and tell these people off
OR
2. They will make a STOCK class and an OUTLAW class
I want to remain basically stock (I've not had the engine opened up yet except for this head issue) but I dont want to be last all the time.
I hope you can see both sides of the spectrum. The ideas provided though have been great. I just got done removing the rest of the dashboard (a couple less pounds) tonight.
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SS Mike wrote:The idea is great, but they are not enforcing anything unless it looks totally different to the naked eye. THE HOTTEST car to have is a 1986-1990 Ford Escort GT 1.9 HO. People have found so many things to do to this motor and it responds very well with bigger pistons and an aftermarket crank and cam. The downfall of the GT is the suspension and frame because the Escort was a weaker car than say a Cavalier. Plus with the shorter wheelbase and higher center of gravity they flip a lot easier.
Anyways. It is basically going to end two ways:
1. The tech guys tighten down and tell these people off
OR
2. They will make a STOCK class and an OUTLAW class
I want to remain basically stock (I've not had the engine opened up yet except for this head issue) but I dont want to be last all the time.
I hope you can see both sides of the spectrum. The ideas provided though have been great. I just got done removing the rest of the dashboard (a couple less pounds) tonight.
according to that post, they say no port work on head, they dont say anything about "working" stock parts.... lighten the crank,shave the head to up compression, port the hell out of the exhaust manifold, etc.. "re-work" as much stock stuff as possible
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** Flat Broke Racing Inc.**
I'm a little more awake today, let's see about some more info to get your running better.
Not knowing any thing you've done yet, or what you're willing to do, I'm taking a shot in the dark, but he it goes!
First off, at most all local tracks, the most important thing is handling. You could have the most power of any out there, but if you cant get that power to the ground, you are literally spinning your wheels! Ivedent Lloyd
http://www.ivedentlloyd.com (3 time Champ of the NLM Southern Sportsman Series) cant take his car and run against the Super Late Models at their own track and beat them, being down 200to 300 HP! He can do this because of handling. Remember, each car is different and all adjustments will differ from car to car as will the preferences of each driver.
Let's start with some basics. First off is your alignment on all four corners. You need all the negative camber on your right side you can get with the stock components, this means the front and rear. On the left side, you'll need some positive camber. The camber will allow for the tires to roll over so that you get the most tread surface on the track producing the most traction from each tire. Just how much the tire rolls depends on the tires you use, the track surface and the banking, but usually you wont get full correction with stock components. You can get some after-market camber adjusting bolts that will give you a little more camber adjustment, these should help. Depending on your experience and knowledge, you may want to get some help with this.
The next thing you should adjust is the toe setting. You might want to start with setting the toe at 1/8" toe out. This will correct the Ackerman Steer (where you tires are pointed while you are turning). The inside tire needs to be turned further than the outside tire to get the most responsive steering. You can set the toe, with the help of a second person, with a couple pieces of square tubing and a tape measure. I'm sure you could find a fellow racer(everyone racing need to have friend at the track) from the track to show you how to do it. In fact, they may even have a set of toe plate to use.
A cheap way to get more traction, if you haven't already done so, is to weld up your spider gears. This will give you a full locker as you probably already know and will give you a allot more traction coming off the corners under power. Make sure that they are welded thoroughly, you don't want the weld breaking and the pieces ruining the whole tranny!
Wheels and tires are also crucial to handling, I know you've stated that you have good wheels and tires, but they are ever bit as important to handling as are the suspension adjustments. As for wheels, you'll want to run the widest rim you can fit. Berrettas and Corsicas have up to a 7" wide rim with the same bolt pattern and hub, but I don't know about the Fiero rims you have. You'll want to run the widest tire you can, while maintaining the amount of stagger needed to get the car to turn. With a locked front end, tire stagger becomes even more important. Find out how much stagger the others are running with and use that as a starting point and adjust from there(always measure the circumference of the tire from the center of the tread, keeping the tape measure centered on the center of the tread). With the DOT radial tires you really have to watch your tire pressures. Too much tire pressure and the tread bow outward and you'll only be riding on the center of the tire. You'll want to run the tires as low as you can, to put as much of the tread on the track surface, without the tread cupping. Due to the stiffness of the tread and belts you can only go so far before the tread bows-up in the middle and you lose traction again. Also remember that tire pressures will affect your stagger, although not allot with the radial tires.
I hope this gets you headed in the right direction. I'm sure some of it you already know, and some you may not . I recommend that you do some reading. HP books and Steve Smith Autosports
http://ssapubl.com have some excellent book on these subjects above. Stock Car Racing and Circle Track also have excellent stories on all technical facecets of racing. Do some reading and talk to you fellow racers, you'll learn allot. BTW , any decent racer will usually talk with you about techical things, atleast untill you become too competitive, then they'll clam up. They want the competition, but not get beat!
P.S. I'll get to an engine post soon.
This is good stuff my friend.
I am running Fiero 14" wheels because they are wider than most.
The next step for me was to lock the front end. We have welded a couple so far we just havent gotten around to mine yet. My dads car is welded and it is crazy to drive.
Dinner is ready, I'll be back in a few.
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Im not into cheating but there are things you can to help you out without crossing over that line. You just lean over it as far as you can without falling!
If it were my car the bigest thing i would be concerned with is weight. get your left side weight up your right side down and your total weight down. Do you have a minimum weight rule?
Gut the cat
Weld the motor mounts solid
eliminate everyother pulley buy the altinator
Invest in some really good dirt tires
All that leaves the motor stock and no actual performance parts are being added. Got any pictures of the car?
- 97 Z24 Racecar work in progress
- 04 WRX STi
ATR Crew Member
Our little tricks (minus our engine stuff)
Our rules are about the same - stock suspension, tire sizes, engine etc.
We run shims for rear axle adjustments with about an 1/8th toe on the rear so the wheels point like this.. / /
It gives us incredible turn in stability and kills alot of the understeer.
We don't use the brakes much but the RF seems to have a BB lodged in the line.. hmm..
Our rear springs are from a station wagon cavy and out LF spring is from a V6 Z24. The RF will drop almost to the ground with that setup. We welded as much crap as we could in the diff.. all the spiders, etc so its basically a solid carrier. We need that because with the suspension setup we have, we carry the LF off the ground in the corners a bit. Thats where the rear toe really helps the turning.
We also welded the entire unibody solid and boxed what we thought we could get away with..
Until I put my chip from my street cav in we are stuck with a rev problem. 2nd gear hits the limiter and 3rd is boggy. But since ethanol gas is cheaper here I'm running my winter chip in the summer so the Hornet can't have it. I have no EPROM programmer anymore so I can't dupe the chip right now. The extra spark and no rev limiter would be sweet though..
First race we finished 3rd to 2 DSM's
We win in the turns but lose in the straights.. not for long though..
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
If I get more than a few minutes I will get the engine post done. Been realy busy trying to get my car running, along with work and taking care of the young'in.
Our new trick is some rear camber shims on the rear axle - we have both rears pointing 1/8+" to the right. Our turn in speed is up a ton. Its wierd in the straights and we can be spun out easier there now, but we don't let off at all entering the corner.
We also have a brake mod that hasn't been found yet - legal but might not be if discovered. It simulates the 3 wheel brakes our sprint car runs without modifying the stock system.
Our new motor should be running soon too.. stock, but yet not..
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
i run a 93 cav on 3/8 mile dirt, and i am throwing the car into the turns at 70+mph.
what i did is ground all but about 3/4 of an inch of the brake pad material off both inner and outter brake pad on the right front. make sure the strip of material that is left( about 3/4- 1 inch) is centered with the caliper piston to prevent binding. this will cause the right front to lose about 50 percent of its stoping power and it will pull the entire front end to the left, and on my car it actually kicks the back of the car out to the right just a bit, and i turn left perfectly by sliding sideways just a bit scrubing off speed and it also sets me up with a strait line to drive right into the straitaway. hope this helps, and if you have any tips let me know.
also the 2nd best thing i did is install spring expanders in the right front to prevent tire layover, and help keep the left front planted.
