Alcohol injection FAQ - Boost Forum

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Alcohol injection FAQ
Tuesday, May 23, 2006 6:56 PM
Well there seems to be alot of guys getting into the alcohol stuff so i put this togeather for you guys...

1. What are the benefits of Water/Methanol injection?
1. Low cost - where else can you get up to 60HP for $299.
2. More power than other means of detonation control.
3. Efficiency - leaner air fuel ratio can be utilized for normal operation.
4. Greatly increases air charge densities for huge horsepower increases.


2. Do I need an Intercooler with Water/Methanol injection?
Up to approximately 20 psi boost, water/methanol injection will provide all the density increase/detonation control needed in most applications. Of course, Intercooling and water/methanol injection would provide even greater benefits especially beyond 20 psi boost. Most air-to-air intercoolers are only 50-65% efficient. That means for example, that with 11psi boost and its 120°f air charge temperature increase, an intercooler reduces the air charge temperature only 60 degrees. Also, an intercooler will reduce boost 2 - 4 psi. on average.

3. Why not use a windshield washer pump?
Water/Methanol must be injected at above 50psi to properly atomize. Lower than 50psi causes greatly reduced air charge cooling as the result of larger droplets and their reduced total surface area.


4. Why methanol?
Methanol is a high octane fuel that is extremely resistant to detonation with an excellent cost/benefit ratio. ($1.50 - $2.00 per gallon.) Its high latent heat of vaporization also makes it an excellent air charge cooler which means a denser mixture and more horsepower. Because of these facts, it is a better anti-detonant than ethanol or iso-propanol although they will work in a pinch. It has however only about 60% of the energy content of gasoline by volume so about twice as much is used to make similar power if used as a straight fuel. It is extremely toxic and should be handled with rubber gloves in well ventilated areas only. Care should be taken to avoid skin contact.

5. How much Water/Methanol?
To prevent detonation, the ratio of Water/Methanol to gasoline is roughly 1 to 5 in gasoline applications- 1 to 4 in diesel. In practice, you give it as much water / methanol as it takes to eliminate detonation without quenching combustion. The amount depends on the onset RPM of injection, the octane of the gasoline, fuel/air ratio, cylinder head type, even the weather conditions. Your engine is actually pretty tolerant of extra water vapor, you will know it's too much when the engine misses and loses power.


6. Where can I purchase Methanol?
Methanol can generally be purchased where racing fuels are sold. Also, most gas line dryers like "Heat" are simply Methanol. Suppliers of industrial chemicals can also supply Methanol usually at a higher price than fuel suppliers. If all else fails, most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% Methanol and 58% water. Methanol can be purchased on the web at www.worldwideracingfuels.com and hiperfuels.com.


7. How long will a tank (2 qts.) last?
In high boost/high horsepower application, a full blast 1/4 mile run will utilize as much as 1/8 tank. A larger tank should be considered if over 9psi boost is utilized in road racing where a tank can be used in as few as 6 - 2 mile/ full tilt laps. Under normal street use in a 400 HP Mustang, a tank usually lasts about 500 miles. Two reservoirs can be used for 1-gal total capacity if desired. Turbo diesels use more qty. and usually utilize the existing windshield washer reservoir (over 4 qts. in most cases) or the new 8-gal reservoir upgrade. More will always be used when the system is first installed, less when the novelty wears off.


8. Can I use windshield washer fluid?
Although most contain some glycol and detergent, most windshield washer fluids are up to 50% alcohol (methanol, ethanol, isopropanol) and make an excellent Boost CoolerŪ. Try to find one that indicates "contains methanol".


9. At what boost level do I introduce Water/Methanol?
Centrifugal superchargers/large turbos: Generally, at 50% of peak boost the recommended quantity should be introduced. Positive displacement superchargers/ fast spooling turbos: injection should occur at or near peak boost to avoid combustion quench since peak boost occurs so fast.


10. What ratio of Water/Methanol is recommended?
A 50/50 ratio is recommended. This has been demonstrated to be the best for charge/air cooling, excellent detonation control, and controlling cylinder temperature. This includes diesel applications where water conditions the combustion of the methanol so combustion timing isn't affected.


11. Many recommend Denso Iridium spark plugs in boosted applications. Will these work also with water/methanol injection?
Denso Iridium spark plugs are highly recommended with the Boost CoolerŪ. Iridiums, with their low firing thresholds and intense spark, allow for larger quantities to be injected sooner without misfiring. This allows for more cooling of the intake air. If you have a misfiring problem, nine times out of ten, Iridiums will clear it up.


12. Will water/methanol harm my engine?
In theory, at recommended quantities, most of the mixture is evaporated before it hits the combustion chamber. Also, injection only takes place at high boost levels minimizing cylinder wash concerns. Engines that have been torn down after two years of water/methanol usage have shown no wear issues only clean combustion chambers. In fact, water/methanol reduces the probability of engine destroying detonation. Think of it as an insurance policy against detonation.

13. Can the Boost CoolerŪ be applied to naturally aspirated and nitrous engines?
1.Naturally aspirated/high compression engines:
In this application, water/methanol injection allows the use of pump fuel in all but the most extreme situations which effects tremendous cost savings as well as horsepower increases due to air density increase and realized timing potential. The system is activated by a throttle switch so that injection takes place only during high engine loads when needed.

2. NOS engines: With NOS, water/methanol injection allows the use of full timing even with large (250HP+) quantities. Injection is controlled by the same means that controls NOS injection.

3. Naturally aspirated/stock compression: With naturally aspirated engines with less than 10:1 compression, water/methanol is used typically in warm climates to get the intake temps back to 60°f. Benefits include: 10-15 HP increases from air density increases and full timing, Increased gas mileage, and carbon free combustion chambers. Activation is by a throttle switch adjusted for onset engine load. With this application, the nozzle is sized so that no more than 10% of total fuel consumption at peak flywheel HP is injected.


thank you to snow performance for this info...



The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno

Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:00 PM
i love you. you have answered just about every question i had on alky/water injection. but how do you know what size nozzle to use?

http://www.helpelijah.com
Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:22 PM
Sean McAfee wrote:i love you. you have answered just about every question i had on alky/water injection. but how do you know what size nozzle to use?


most companys who make kits should be able to tell you what size you need depending on what type of a mixture you are using.... if your using water only you will need a bigger on then a pure alcohol one.... they nozzles you should be looking at are used in gas furnesses i believe and are sized by M8 M7 ect.... i can not remember what sizes are for which and i know some one on here probably knows so hopfully they can help out here... but i will try to track that info down for you



The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:40 PM
i use a m4 injector on the stock s/c pulley. a upgraded pulley i recommend a m5.

injectors can be had here at www.mcmastercarr.com for cheap, go to page 1939. you want the standard misting nozzle injector that is brass. you look under the flow rate @100 psi and that is what you need, just put a M in front of it.


also, sites such as www.coolingmist.com , www.enginerunup.com, and www.devilsown.com have really nice kits.

feel free to ask me any ?s.




Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:02 AM
Wow, every question I've had about Alcohol injection was just answered! Sticky it to the top!!!














Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Wednesday, May 24, 2006 11:44 AM
Nice write up. I may have missed it, but a section about how the injection "steam cleans" everything out and gets rid of carbon build up all the way to the end of the exhaust would be a good part to include. Also, when GM tested alky injection on some of the older buicks, they ran them between peak torque and peak horsepower for 100000 miles and did notice that the alky had more wear, but I don't think any of our cars will ever see that kind of abuse. Do you have any experience using isopropyl alcohol (sp?)?



Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Wednesday, May 24, 2006 5:10 PM
the lemur wrote:Nice write up. I may have missed it, but a section about how the injection "steam cleans" everything out and gets rid of carbon build up all the way to the end of the exhaust would be a good part to include. Also, when GM tested alky injection on some of the older buicks, they ran them between peak torque and peak horsepower for 100000 miles and did notice that the alky had more wear, but I don't think any of our cars will ever see that kind of abuse. Do you have any experience using isopropyl alcohol (sp?)?


ahh yes i missed that out... and i have seen first hand how well it steam cleans the internals... we have ran alcohol on our 87 Buick GNX for the last 4 years and the internals on it are minty clean.... and that was one of the cars GM tested with it as it actually has a routing for it in the car as well as a low alcohol light... just they never actually used it... i do know some people who have finished up what GM started in their Grand Nationals and it works well.. I don't personally have experience with isopropl alcohol but one of the guys in my dads Grand National Car club might so if you wish i can ask them next time i see them..

also when getting rid of the carbon build up you are lowering the chances of knock or pre-detonation in the combustion chambers because you are getting rid of the hot spots which cause knock... or one of the ways ...

as for wear on the engine... it will only ruin things like seals in the alcohol pump and that is all dependant apon what type of mixture your using... a more pure alcohol solution will tend to be VERY nasty on seals and very toxic as well... even my old man who used pure methanol is converting to a windshield washer / ethanol solution as it is ALOT cheaper and does the exact same thing (and this is in a car pushing 30psi of boost and it still works even at thoughs boost levels)... as well if you have tuned your system using this same mix if your ever in a pinch and need some NOW!!!! you can find just windshield washer fluid basically any were...

also if any one has the control to make this a sticky i guess its up to you but with all the questions on alcohol injection this might be one thing to add up under even one of the stickys above....



The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:39 PM
i say sticky. i had tons of questions 2 days ago and that just answered all of em. good job.
Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:48 PM
i and others have good luck with a mixture of the yellow bottle HEET stuff( 99% methonal) and distilled water.

i tried windshield washer fluid. i just dont like the idea of the other chemicals in it.




Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:41 AM
i'm a bit confused. in the write up it says how much water/methanol and says 1 to 5 in gasoline applications then a few paragraphs down it says what ratio of water/methanol and it says 50/50?? also you say that methanol is the best yet your dad runs ethanol?? so if most winter windshield wash is 42% methanol and 58% water, to get a 50/50 mix you'd only have to add a bit of methanol to the mixture??



Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Thursday, May 25, 2006 1:17 PM
why isn't this stickied yet?
good info, i had some questions about alky injection and you answered most of them thanks





Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Saturday, May 27, 2006 9:29 AM
purplezed wrote:i'm a bit confused. in the write up it says how much water/methanol and says 1 to 5 in gasoline applications then a few paragraphs down it says what ratio of water/methanol and it says 50/50?? also you say that methanol is the best yet your dad runs ethanol?? so if most winter windshield wash is 42% methanol and 58% water, to get a 50/50 mix you'd only have to add a bit of methanol to the mixture??


I think he meant that the ratio of (water/methanol) to (gasoline) was 1 to 5. Then the ratio of (water) to (methanol) was 50/50.
Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Saturday, May 27, 2006 11:26 AM
i don't think there is a ratio of water/methanol to gasoline in this application. water/methanol is controlled by the alky kit and gasoline is controlled by the actual car. unless you had a variable rate pump that increased as RPM did and load, the alky mixture would always stay the same where as the fuel would change.



Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Saturday, May 27, 2006 6:41 PM
well in me and my dads case our alky controlers control the speed of the pump as well so we can have it start out slow and increase gradualy... but in his case he hits about 25psi almost instantly with his hi stall converter (being a auto trany in the gnx) so he just puts it so the pump comes on max right away where as me... and what most 4cyl have to do is have it come on small and go from there or else in some cases you wil get a bogging problem with to much alcohol being sprayed...



The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Monday, May 29, 2006 9:34 AM
that doesn't really answer my confusing though Josh.



Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Monday, January 01, 2007 7:53 PM
I had to search to find this thread, I tried alky, water, injection... *bump*



HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED

Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Tuesday, January 02, 2007 6:10 AM
nice bump! this should be a sticky



|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Wednesday, January 03, 2007 12:10 PM
its not really a write up its a copy and paste job from snowperformance

nevertheless good info



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85





Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:28 PM
Ya this stuf works nice.

Chris


'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08

Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Wednesday, January 03, 2007 5:07 PM
The second link doesn't work.

The third link is really this one http://www.alcohol-injection.com/

Really good info, i hadn't ever heard people supporting this for anything but boost.

PSN ID: Phatchance249

Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Friday, January 05, 2007 12:46 AM
alky injection is amazing. i should have had my kit installed when i dyno'd. im sure i could have turned 375 or so. o well, my built 3500 will put me around 550+ at 18 psi


358whp,365tq @9 psi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ibU1k8UZoo

Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Saturday, January 06, 2007 7:35 PM
I noticed this

Low cost - where else can you get up to 60HP for $299.

Do you have a parts list and where to buy parts. I'm working with a supercharged 2.2 OHV.

Chris

Nice writeup, very useful info.
Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Thursday, June 07, 2007 9:34 PM
Old thread, very useful- sticky it!
I have one question: in a s/c application, the spray goes after the supercharger, right? I just have been reading some posts about the twin-charged 'fire and Josh said that the s/c gets cold when spraying methanol. makes it sound like it's before... also, on a turbo w/ an intercooler, before or after the intercooler? or does it even matter in that case?
Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:05 PM
Somebody Sticky this please...






Legendary Bash Veteran
Re: Alcohol injection FAQ
Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:59 PM
Kevin Richter wrote:Somebody Sticky this please...




12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
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