OK, with numerous threads that have parts of this info, it seems about time to start a thread for no other reason that discussing different options, and a spot that has all the info together (while this may seem redundant for many of you, at least it's all in the same place, and we're not jacking other threads):

A summary of what we already know:

N-Body control arms will fit a J-Body. In order to retain proper camber without modification of other suspension parts, the control arm must be shortened by 1/2 (simply done by filling the existing ball joint mounting holes, grinding/cutting/machining off the 1/2" of length, and drilling new holes.
99 N-Body control arms are aluminum, hence the desire for the swap.

N-Body spindles/knuckles can be installed in a J-Body by swapping out the ball joints to N-Body ball joints.

N-Body hubs can be used on the J-body with the N-Body spindles by swapping the outter half of the CV from the N-Body onto the J-Body axle.

Switching to the N-Body spindle allows for various brake upgrades, due them using the standard GM caliper mounting bolt pattern. N-Body rotors are 11", W/G body rotors are 12". You can also use the F-Body dual piston calipers on the W/G 12" rotors.

W/G hubs can be used on the N-Body spindles, which will allow the use of the W/G body axles (must thicker/stronger than the J or N-body axles). These axles will need to be shortened to work on the J-Body, and it is currently unknown if they will fit transmissions other than the 4t65e.

With both all of the above listed hubs, you will be able to plug the ABS sensor into the factory ABS plug. They are interchangeable.

The thing about switching to the N-Body or W/G-Body hubs/rotors, etc. is that this will change your wheel bolt pattern to the 1x115. If you do the N-Body IRS swap, this will give you the matching bolt pattern in the rear.

If I've left anything out, feel free to add.

I say we need full write ups in this thread, with pictures. Part numbers, detailed instructions etc, its would be probably one of the, if not THE most valuble sticky on the ORG.



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"

There is already a how-to for the spindle, ball joint, brake swap (sticky: N+W+F-Body Front Suspension Swap - How To). You can use the same how-to and just substitute the different parts. I'm sure more how-to posts will come up.

This is more of a place discussion for different things we all have come up with via discussions in other threads.

Since this is a catch all anyway, I have a new one just thought of the other day. I'm doing the 3800SC swap and wondering if I can swap the steering rack & pinion. Anybody know if the bolt holes are the same distance or any of that jazz? I haven't looked at all yet, but wondering if someone else has. The W body has available variable effort power steering. My N steering column already has the sensor for it.

There are write-ups here for the known swaps: N+W+F-Body Front Suspension Swap - How To, IRS How to. The front swap also requires aftermarket tie rod end boots, the stock ones will tear open after a while.

Also you said 1x115 bolt pattern above, most will know you really meant 5x115.

PS. For everyon's sanity in this thread, please please please specify who/what you're answering in a post.
PPS. We're talking about GM parts here too. We know there are aftermarket things, and there's a neon disc swap too.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Saturday, October 21, 2006 9:00 PM

I believe the bolt pattern is actually 5x114.3mm, which is just the metric equivalent of 5x4.5".

I'm pretty certain it was the newer cars which used 5x115mm, which is slightly different and not easily interchangeable with 5x114.3mm....

But is 5x100 actually 5x100mm? Or is it supposed to be 5x101.6mm? Which is the same as 5x4"?

...j

GM's own words are 5x115 on the larger cars. And 5x100 on the Js. They used to use 5x4.5 and 5x4.0 quite a bit though, so it wouldn't suprise me.

The difference between 114.3 and 115 is small enough that they will work so long as the hub is right (may need hub centric rings).
The difference between 100 and 101.6 is too much and will not turn out right at all.

C.T.S wrote:Also you said 1x115 bolt pattern above, most will know you really meant 5x115.

No, I meant that it switches your car to a unilug setup with a 115mm nut.
Ooops! Blame Jose Cuervo.

Quick question about the tie rod end. Has anyone who's driven their setup used the N-Body tie rod end, or has everyone used the J?

Lenko, the bolt pattern on the newer cars is definitely 5x115. GM switched to full metric on FWD vehicles around 6 or 7 years ago. Prior to that, they did use the metric conversion of standard numbers, but they slowly phased it out in favor of the true metric number.

Another note on front end swaps and also pertaining to the V6 swap. I've raised the question of swapping the subframe from an N-Body into the J. The cars are so close structurally, that I'm thinking it might work. The benefit of this would be for the engine swap. You would not have to fabricate the torque mount, because the torque mount is part of the subframe. The question was asked about the tranny mounts, and I double checked on mine, and the tranny mounts to the frame rails, not the subframe. I don't know if this will be the case for other tranny setups, but it would seem to make sense that they are all mounted to about the same place.

ok guys, back to the axles.. i have a new style getrag 5 spd J. as you know the passenger side axle is long. probably much longer than the w/g body passenger axle as the auto tranny sticks out there quite a bit.. Anyone know if this is indeed true and the 5 spd axles are longer than the w/g auto axles? if this is the case than we need to get custom axles with splines to fit the w/g outer cv and be long enough to fit into the inner 5 speed transmission cv/pot.

i guess the final part of the equation would be if the splines on the w/g HD trannys are bigger. (as in where it enters the diff). Than if this is the case you couldnt use the w/g axles at all, unless you narrowed the inner axle splines to fit into the inner 5 spd pot?

any ideas?


farmerz24

The passenger side Getrag axle is WAY longer than the 4T65E-HD axle that I'm using. You'd have to have a shop fabricate a new axle entirely, if you wanted to use something thick like the axle that comes with the GTP/Bonneville/Park Ave.

I don't know about the splines... I just sold all my axles, other than the set I'm using... I can try and check tomorrow at the wreckers when I'm out there....

Quiklilcav wrote:

C.T.S wrote:Also you said 1x115 bolt pattern above, most will know you really meant 5x115.

No, I meant that it switches your car to a unilug setup with a 115mm nut.
Ooops! Blame Jose Cuervo.

Quick question about the tie rod end. Has anyone who's driven their setup used the N-Body tie rod end, or has everyone used the J?

Lenko, the bolt pattern on the newer cars is definitely 5x115. GM switched to full metric on FWD vehicles around 6 or 7 years ago. Prior to that, they did use the metric conversion of standard numbers, but they slowly phased it out in favor of the true metric number.

Another note on front end swaps and also pertaining to the V6 swap. I've raised the question of swapping the subframe from an N-Body into the J. The cars are so close structurally, that I'm thinking it might work. The benefit of this would be for the engine swap. You would not have to fabricate the torque mount, because the torque mount is part of the subframe. The question was asked about the tranny mounts, and I double checked on mine, and the tranny mounts to the frame rails, not the subframe. I don't know if this will be the case for other tranny setups, but it would seem to make sense that they are all mounted to about the same place.

im using the j body tie rod ends..... I guess theres a lil play in them but u can just swap to n-body tie rod ends. I had to leave for work so i dont know exactly how much play but i dont notice anything.



Team GREEN

I think I'm going to swap out to the N-Body tie rod ends. Not expensive, so why not. I was just curious if anyone had used them yet.

Don't mean to barge in on the thread but do want to be kept up with what's going on.
Listening and learning.

Misnblu



Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!

Quiklilcav wrote:I think I'm going to swap out to the N-Body tie rod ends. Not expensive, so why not. I was just curious if anyone had used them yet.

not the same thread, n body is bigger your will a threaded sleeve to make it fit

it's on my to do list



Location: Montreal, Quebec

hey lenko,

id appreciate if you could snap some pics of the sc w/g car splines/axle/cv where it goes into the tranny or even some measurements comparing it to the J inner CV. i need the strongest driveline possible. also, is there a difference in the sc w/g bodies compared to non sc ones? is the outer cv and axle the same or is it only the inner splines and cv (where it goes into the tranny, any different)????????



farmerz24

^^^whats the benefit?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:45 PM

Quiklilcav wrote:Another note on front end swaps and also pertaining to the V6 swap. I've raised the question of swapping the subframe from an N-Body into the J. The cars are so close structurally, that I'm thinking it might work. The benefit of this would be for the engine swap. You would not have to fabricate the torque mount, because the torque mount is part of the subframe. The question was asked about the tranny mounts, and I double checked on mine, and the tranny mounts to the frame rails, not the subframe. I don't know if this will be the case for other tranny setups, but it would seem to make sense that they are all mounted to about the same place.

The N-body subframe definitely doesn't fit... it's totally different. Of the 6 bolts that hold the J-car subframe to our cars... none line up with the N-body subframe... not even close. There isn't even metal there, on the N-body subframe... sure, you could weld something in place... that would work.

But the front of the N-body subframe comes up way higher at the front, the J-body front rad support is much lower... you'd have to hack off a good 4 or 5 inches to make it line up, then weld a plate on to mate the two.

Lots of work... I seriously contemplated it for this L67 swap tho - it would probably be faster than trying to fab up an entire new subframe.... I've got pics comparing the two somewhere around here....

^^^^ Damn. That rules out the whole reason I was going to try it. I'm trying to see how many off the shelf parts can be used for the engine swap. I only mentioned here because it pertained to suspenion parts as well.

mcmoney wrote:not the same thread, n body is bigger your will a threaded sleeve to make it fit

Anything pertaining to these swaps can go into this thread. That's why I created it, just so we can discuss all this stuff without junking up the other threads.

No other subframe is even close to the J frame. I looked already too for the 3800 swap. I'm planning on chopping up a W subframe for the mount points and welding those on. Re-enforcing the J frame up to the radiator support. The radiator support will be beefed up, and I'll add the dogbone mounts just like a W body. The radiator support will be extended back to the strut tower and door jam area, similar to a fender strut tower brace.

cts i would like to see the mods you are doing to the front rad support to make it stronger. i know some cars has cross braces up top to tie everything together. maybe this is what we need.?


farmerz24

C.T.S wrote:No other subframe is even close to the J frame. I looked already too for the 3800 swap. I'm planning on chopping up a W subframe for the mount points and welding those on. Re-enforcing the J frame up to the radiator support. The radiator support will be beefed up, and I'll add the dogbone mounts just like a W body. The radiator support will be extended back to the strut tower and door jam area, similar to a fender strut tower brace.

I'm actually surprized that the N-Body isn't almost the same. There are so many parts interchangeable on these cars, and so many dimensions that are the same. I may look into pulling the lower dogbone mount from an N and see how easy it would be to put on the J subframe.

farmerz24 wrote:cts i would like to see the mods you are doing to the front rad support to make it stronger. i know some cars has cross braces up top to tie everything together. maybe this is what we need.?

I'm trying to remember what Raven did to his after he bent it. Also, DoubleZed did some reinforcing for his DOHC swap. You can probably find it one their cardomain pages.

Raven abandoned using the radiator to support anything. His 3800 is held completely from the bottom. He had to add brackets to make it work. Like I said before, I'm not 100% sure how this is all going to pan out, but a little knowledge and a tig welder can be a dangerous combination.

Also, when I said no other is even close, I meant no other has any hope of being boldted on like a swap. Anything and everything needs some pretty good machining/welding to make it work, enough that it's just not worth it to me.

C.T.S wrote:Also, when I said no other is even close, I meant no other has any hope of being boldted on like a swap. Anything and everything needs some pretty good machining/welding to make it work, enough that it's just not worth it to me.

Yeah, that defeats the whole reason I was looking into it anyway. I'm just trying to see how many off the shelf parts I can bolt up.

H body (Bonneville, STS, etc) spindles will fit, you just have to swap the ball joint. Its basically the same swap as the N body swap (spindle, ball joint, outer CV, etc). I made an adapter plate to use the J body bearing/hub on the H body spindle to alleviate swapping CVs. That way if I break an axle, its a direct parts store replacement. I don't know about the location of the steering arm though. I simply cut them off, since 2nd gens have them on the strut.

James, a couple of questions:

1) What was the benefit of the swap you did?

2) After making an adapter plate, did you have to make an adapter for the brakes so that they lined up?

I'd be interested in any other pertinent info. I'm just curious about the who thing.

10.5" vented rotors is the main benefit. And you'd be surprised at the amount of aftermarket pad/rotor combos out there. Besides the adapter plate, I had to redrill the rotors for 5x100, but I'm sure you could source them from Wilwood by just giving them the dimensions and bolt pattern. The plate was kind of a necessity, since the bolt pattern on the bearing ended up halfway in the spindle and halfway in nothing (if you can understand that), and I needed some "meat" to bolt the bearing to. As far as ABS goes, you would need to machine a flat spot on the back of the spindle for the sensor, since the reluctor is now inside the spindle. I don't have any ABS parts on my car besides the reluctor wheels, so it wasn't an issue for me. The banjo is the same size as stock, but I don't know if the stock hose is long enough to reach at full lock, so aftermarket hoses are probably easier to use here. Pics-

The modified spindle. I had to take off .300 so that the face of the adapter plate would put the bearing where it needed to be in relation to the back or the rotor.


The plate-



Together-



With the bearing-


With the rotor-


Installed-



It won't fit behind stock 15" wheels, but maybe aftermarket ones will.