Ok guys, I need some input an help on this one.
I just put back together my motor. I had to put new pistons in it, and a new head. Anyways, now, after 21 miles, I've got a pretty serious problem. I opened the valve cover to check the valve adjustment to make sure they were adjusted correctly. Anyways, I was presented with a Blacked rocker roller. Only one, the others were fine. The only conclusion I can reach is that it is not getting oil from the pushrod, which would mean the lifter isn't supplying oil.
Now, before I put the cylinder head on , I did use a drill to pressurize the oil system, and I saw oil come out of all the lifters, but I do remember that lifter has much less oil coming out of it then the others. That should have been a sign, and I should have tried to figure it out then. I also seem to remember that lifter not being able to move freely in that lifter bore...
These are the JBP performance lifters too, not just OEM lifters.
So, Here are the pics. Please give me your thoughts on what went wrong, and suggested repairs?
I'm going to remove the head, and pull that lifter out. worse case, I buy a new OEM, and an LT1 lifter, and swap in the LT1 spring into the oem lifter. Then use that lifter.
Could the oil galley on the block be only partially lined up with the lifter oil inlet, and thus it is not getting full oil pressure, and not pushing enough oil to the top of the engine?
Well, I had a buddy come over, and we decided to take off the intake manifold so we could spin the oil pump with a drill, and see if oil was indeed coming up or not. We spinned the oil pump and no oil came up on 3 exhaust ports, and 1 intake manifold. We then realized if the lifter was lifted up, it might not be in the right spot to get oil. We spinned the crank some, and the intake valve that was compressed and went back to rest, oil started to come out of that one. But, the 3 exhaust rockers closest to the transmission, didn't have oil coming out. We then gave up spinning the crank, (it's hard to do, haha). If indeed the other two rockers wern't getting oil either ,then why did they look silver, and not burned up like the one on the end. So, we figured, there must be something wrong with the lifter, and proceeded to take the head off. I got the head off, removed the alignment bracket (which looked correct). First, all the lifters were lined up parallel. The one on the far right, did spin freely in it's bucket. It did not lift freely all the way out like the intake one next to it, but neither did another lifter that Had oiling coming up to the rocker. So, that must not matter. It lifted probably the exact amount of the valve lift. It didn't take much pressure to lift out. It came out fine....
So, what do you think? just clogged up? take a look at the pictures, and please provide some ideas/opinions.
Us taking the rockers off, after we had the intake off
The oil pump hole, that i put the drill into to spin the pump. The drill only spins at 600 rpm at full speed, and the battery was a bit low so, that may be why some of the rockers didn't get oil...
The cylinders after the head was removed. Ahh.. I just saw you pistons 20 miles ago.....
The head
The lifters
The passanger side with the guide still on.
The bore of the suspect lifter. Looks fine, but i'm not sure what to look for.
Same view a bit further back
A complete running engine after 2 hours of me tearing it apart.
Well, I'm open to experience from the OHV community out there, that may have knowledge or info on these lifters.
My buddy thinks something is wrong with the lifters. I'm going to take the suspect one apart tonight, and put it next to an OEM one. I know a lot of people had been wondering what the difference is between an OEM and the JBP. (did anyone ever take one apart??) Tonight, we all find out. haha.
Thanks for reading this far.
Yah, I think you are correct. i'm going to drain the oil, change the filter, and disassemble all the lifters, and clean them out. That should do it. Anyone know where I can find the part number for these comp cam rocker rollers I have. I wonder if I can buy just one of them. I bought these off the classifieds, like 4 years ago. I looked on their website, and they only list V6 and V8 parts for rocker rollers.
Also, anyone have an idea on why my cylinder all the way on the passenger side of the engine has more carbon build up them the other three? Too little air/ too much fuel.. Maybe too little fuel? I don't have much experience diagnosing individual cylinder tunes. The injector may be clogged. All the spark plugs are new.
well, I've taken apart my JBP lifter, and an old OEM lifter i've had sitting around. My JBP lifter has about 600 miles on it, and the OEM one has about 155K miles. (i think)
The parts from the JBP lifter look a little burned up, I didn't notice it until I looked at the pictures from my digital camera. the ONLY difference I see between the two lifters, besides one being burned, is that the JBP lifter has a larger (small) spring. The big spring is the exact same for both lifters. The other difference, is that the cup that the little spring sits in has larger gaps between the three sides. See pics.
So, basically, now it looks like maybe the lifter wasn't getting oil, but the oil that came out of the lifter looked clean. I didn't see any particles, or anything.
On to the pics.
So... Baffled. I'm not sure what to do. It definitely looks burned on the JBP one. It probably got hot and burned up the oil.
I feel cheated!! Paid $332.90 for the JBP lifters, and could get 8 LT1 lifters for $108, and swap those parts into my lifters. Grrrr...
I went over a buddy's house, and we sprayed some WD-40 into the lifter body that had the crud in the center of the piece, and turned it upside down, and little particles came out onto the paper towel.
I used a gasket material remover disk, on a cordless drill, and it must have got some stuff in the oil. I tried to clean up most of the mess after I cleaned the block mating surface. I removed each lifter and cleaned the exterior, and I even poured oil down over the lifters, and block, to pull most of the material down to the pan. I then removed the pan, and removed the oil, and washed the pan completely clean. I guess I missed some....
sorry to hear about your car Jeff, if your ever around Radford give me a call pm me for my number if you want it. I blew my motor at the last autocross i went to. Rod bearings 1, 2, and 3, so I'm building her bulletproof top to bottom, head to crank, fully balanced. Possibly boost her sometime in the next 2 years.
-Chris
Thanks chris. It's ok. I'll have mine running in just a couple of weeks. I'd like to see your car if i'm ever down there.
Also, for everyone's knowledge, all the lifters had that nasty center look, and look varnished with oil. Even the lifters that were supplying oil. Is that just because some crud got in the lifters and restricted oil flow???
Quote:
I used a gasket material remover disk, on a cordless drill,
This is the only type of gasket removal disc you should be using. Others are made of Scotchbrite, which is a no-no.
Junk is likely to come out of the lifter. Expect chunks and sludge alike. Pieces of the gasket removal pads probably didn't get into the lifter body. But you should disassemble all the lifters and clean them out with a good solvent then re-assemble with clean oil. Be sure and flush out all pushrods, making sure the oil passages are clean as well. Rockers should be assembled with plenty of lube spread around the ball and the rocker arm since they get no oil for a short time until after the lifter is pumped up and the pushrod fills.
Hard to tell how bad the burned lifter is. Maybe you should buy some used LT1 lifters and build some LN2 hybrids, just so there's no question?
-->Slow
Yah, I think to make sure there is no question to build some hybrid lifters. How are those working on for you? I remember you said you would run them in your next engine build back in the post where you discovered the LT1 Swap.
Did you ever do that, and if so, how are they holding up?
Question: Are my 155K OEM lifter bodies good enough to swap LT1 components into? or should I get new OEM ones, and new LT1's and swap the parts? If I use my old OEM ones, cost is only $110, otherwise, it's more like $250. I don't understand how our stock lifters are more expensive then the LT1 Lifters.
Also, are the LT1 lifters designed to rev to 7000rpm? Excuse my ignorance on what cars came with the LT1 engine, and what the rev limit was in them. Anyone have an idea?
My engine isn't done yet. Too many projects, too few paychecks. But a racer in Ohio has built a set to use with a high lift cam and he tells me they run to almost 7k with them every week, no problems. I think he was #2 in a fairly competitive class last time I checked.
I would generally not have a problem with higher mileage lifters as a starting point. To me, if they made it that far they were assembled well and have no machining errors. Others would like the added reassurance which comes from knowing new lifters aren't likely to have any parts waiting to fail.
LT1 lifters are hydraulic and GM doesn't often admit they'll go to 7k. But you can browse through some of the LT1 forums and find guys shifting near that peak after changing their cams and making appropriate tuning changes. Still, the hydraulic roller lifter is heavy and you do want to make sure you've got plenty of spring pressure if you're going to be running continuously at that high rpm.
LT1 lifters are cheaper due to manufacturing volume. If you go through 100 hours to set up a mchine to build 1 lifter, then one lifter has to be priced to cover 100 hours of machine set up time plus materials & etc. But if you make 10,000 lifters after you set up the machine the price per lifter is going to be much lower. Lots more demand for LT1 lifters, and added to that there are other engines using similar sized lifters. LN2... as we know, not so popular.
-->Slow
Thanks for the tips and info slowolej. I was under the same feeling that if they lasted 155K, then they were built well, and will continue to last.
I mean, what in a lifter fails. Even after having it apart, I am still not clear on exactly where the oil goes after it comes in the hole, and EXACTLY how it operates while in use.
I guess, the only parts that may get old would be the ball, and the two springs. As long as the bearing for the lower wheel is functioning good, then after putting in the LT1 parts, it basically new anyways. right?
So, for the LT1 lifters, are those the same ones that come in the 1997 Camero Z28. I did some googling, and that car has the LT1 engine in it. Is that the one to use? I looked on advance auto parts, and It listed two lifters. Sealed Power, and AE clevite. The sealed power ones are in stock, but the AE clevite are cheaper.
Are either of these acceptable?
Yep, the 1997 Camaro uses the right lifters. But aftermarket parts may not fit into the GM lifters. Might want to look at one before ponying up for eight.
Hmmm... I just looked and they're using the same lifter for many engines, even non-performance ones. So they're either using "upgraded" LT1 lifters for everything or they're selling "downgraded" lifters for the LT1.
LS1 and LT1 lifters are sold as the same part by many performance aftermarket companies. I'm still searching through GM literature.
partsamerica.com and Advance Auto are all part of the same company, but your local Advance store probably can't get the clevite lifters. For the price they're asking, why not try Evilbay? A set of 16 can be had for almost the same price as 8.
For the last couple of weeks I've been cleaning up the barn. I've found some used LT1 lifters already but they're already spoken for. If I find more I'll let ya know.
Shannen
Added notes:
OE LT1 lifters changed to "higher checkball preload" in 95. Smallblocks and V6's made from 95+ had this design change lifter. If you check Evilbay there are two "vortec lifter" auctions going on right now which are selling used lifters for short $$.
So, you're saying, I can use the lifters from the LS1 as well? I'd feel better that those parts can handle more power, especially since the LS1 motor is a bit newer, and more powerful then the LT1 (right)?
I found thsi auction on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-GM-CHEVY-CORVETTE-LS1-LS6-HYDRAULIC-ROLLER-LIFTERS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33614QQihZ013QQitemZ230165004617QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
Hmm, I also did some more browsing on parts america. The AE clevite listed for the LT1 from the 1997 camero, is the same part as the lifter for the 2001 Z06 corvette. That is encouraging. It did not however list the other Sealed power HT2148 lifter. Must not be of the same performance level as the AE clevite one.
So, basically, the ebay auction, and the AE clevite lifters are basically the same? right?
I'm leaning towards the ebay auction since I get 16 lifters, and it is 30 dollars cheaper. Yes, i have to wait longer, since i wanted to get my car running this weekend since I don't have any time on weekdays to mess with it, but no big deal. Next weekend i suppose.
Do the ebay ones look correct?
Loki, I can't find anything on the 'net telling me what the differences are between GM's LT1 and LS1 lifters. The aftermarket performance guys seem to lump 'em together under one part number, but knowing GM there's something slightly different between the two.
Funny that you mention that auction. See where it lists 2 part numbers and says "depending on application." I tried using those part numbers to look up specs but couldn't find anything. I guessed they're GM internal part numbers, so I emailed the seller and asked "what's the difference?" Here's his reply:
"Both part numbers are for the same part. The manufacturer and supplier to GM, Eaton
catalogs the parts for 98 and up Gen III (4.8, 5.3, 5.7, and 6.0) and 01 and up 5.7
Corvette. The number I have listed is the number they sell to GM under which may
not be what you can buy it under. I will try to find the retail part number next
week, but I am quite confident they will work in those applications. Thanks."
Between the price of the lifters and the information supplied, I would probably be willing to gamble that the internal parts from those LS1 lifters will fit the LN2 lifter. Keep in mind that the only ones which I know will work are the LT1 / LT4 / Vortec lifters.
The nice thing is, you can probably find some used, stock LN2 lifters, swap over another set, then sell 'em and get some $$ back.
-->Slow
Great, Thanks for that info, and I appreciate you asking the seller those items. I have 15 hours left in the auction to make a decision. I think I will go ahead and get those LS1 lifters, and swap those parts into the LN2 lifters. I think that will keep the lifters up to the task of supporting 7000 rpm if not a little more then that.
I will make sure I make a post showing the difference in the OEM and the hybrid ones when I assemble them. Thanks a lot slowolej for your insight into this lifter problem.
Do we have to cut the LT1 lifter springs, or are they the same height as the LN2?
Stevefire,
No, and no. Leave the springs alone, just apply more pressure when re-assembling the lifter.
-->Slow
I've got my new lifters back in, but when I spin the pump, some aren't pushing out the volume that the others are pushing out. Is that normal? I plan to put it all together with the pushrods, and rocker rollers, and them pump the oil system, and make sure the rockers on top are getting oil. That should be enough protection right? As long as they all pump oil up, that is all that matters i would think.
I don't check lifters like this. But lifters farthest from the pump are most likely to show less oil flow, as (IIRC) oil is also supplied to cam brgs along the way. If the difference is large, maybe check to see how cam brgs are doing and that they're not bleeding off precious oil. If you're getting a decent amount of oil out the top of the engine when everything's assembled they may not be a problem. But check to make sure.
-->Slow.
