How does the Ecoteck engine respond to receiving E85 fuel? Ive been surfing the web but I have found nothing on it and I know that GM is now releasing more engines that can take it, and I know that my engine is a relatively recently released engine and Im not sure if they made that one to be ready 4 wut is goin on right now or not.
actually there was some models produced that are flex fuel compatible, if you look at the ac delco website theres a different vin for it it was in some 03s not sure about 04-05s
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
acidburn1022 wrote:what is an ecoteck?
x2, maybe its similar to V-tech
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I belive it can be done from what Ive heard but your going to need to change all of your lines. I think the pumps fine. I belive the injectors will have to be relaced.
nothing crazy execpt...
Im not sure what kind of burn the e85 takes so if your car is looking for a 14.7 on gasoline I have abosultey no idea how it would adjust fuel with e85
but no worries pick up a fuel controlle (Ie MS) and call it a day
"
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You probably won't do E85 with stock injectors. The stock pump might not even be enough. The volume of fuel needed is much larger for E85. Stoich is 9.77:1 which means you'll need about 50% more fuel during cruise. Rich Best Power AFR is around 6.97:1 instead of gasoline's 12.2:1. You'll need roughly 80% more fuel in power enrichment than a gas engine.
Here's a post that runs through some of the math needed to determine pressures and injector sizes for switching to E85, along with some of the fuel system requirements.
E85 info
fuel thats 85% ethanol. mostly corn gas
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If its not a flex fuel car then no.
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you can get converstion kit to switch it over to e85 and gas and no it will not hurt your engine as these guys say it will all u would have to do is add a bottle of the speical conditioner to your oil change to help it to coat your engine so the e85 wount hurt it and also with the fuel lines you wount have to change it or the injectors if you want more information type in e85 in google and there is alot of good info on this E85 topic
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Just keep in mind alcohol of any type eats away at aluminum mush like rust does to steel. Anything that is aluminum needs to be coated. Alcohol and aluminum do not mix well at all.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Quote:
you can get converstion kit to switch it over to e85 and gas and no it will not hurt your engine as these guys say it will all u would have to do is add a bottle of the speical conditioner to your oil change to help it to coat your engine so the e85 wount hurt it and also with the fuel lines you wount have to change it or the injectors if you want more information type in e85 in google and there is alot of good info on this E85 topic
This is not a new subject. But there will be plenty of misinformation about it.
1) Ethanol is a consistent and pure hydrocarbon fuel. There's no reason to need a "special oil additive" to use it. Additionally, many cheap oil additives are based on chlorine molecules which, when subjected to heat and moisture inside an engine, can create acids detrimental to long engine life.
2) Because Ethanol (and all alchohols) contain a higher ratio of oxygen to hydrogen/carbon than gasoline, the mass of fuel required to properly combust the fuel:air mix is very different. Each conversion should include research into the appropriate size components to include in the fuel system. GM's flex fuel vehicles generally include larger fuel injectors as well as a fuel rail pressure sensor and an alcohol content detection method since the basic calibrations for the two types of fuels are different.
3) No one here has said E85 will hurt the engine.
4) A simple Google for "E85 Conversion Kit" pulls up
this page by the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition in the very first link which addresses E85 conversions with an extremely practical answer. "The differences in fuel injector size, air-fuel ratio, PCM calibrations, material composition of the fuel lines, pumps and tanks are just a few of the components that contribute to making an E85 conversion extremely complex.." This doesn't mean it's impossible, just that you need to use your head before doing the conversion. These guys also mention that E85 conversion can be considered illegal in some areas, which might be important if you live in a place with stricty emissions laws.
5) If you've found a conversion kit, post a link. Don't make people waste time looking for what you've found. It's not like this is a FAQ (yet).
Some Excellent E85 reading (answers questions about conversion kits, etc):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
-->Slow
Im not to sure on this whole thing but I know hot rod mag did a write up on e85 a few month back about running it in sbc chevy with a carb. What they found out is that you can run higher cr than with gas(13.1)less detination. I am trying to find the article, ill post it up when I find it.
Ight, thankz everyone. And my bad on the spelling. Was doin researched and posted the question when i was pretty tired.
Kustom 96 Sunfire GT wrote:you can get converstion kit to switch it over to e85 and gas and no it will not hurt your engine as these guys say it will all u would have to do is add a bottle of the speical conditioner to your oil change to help it to coat your engine so the e85 wount hurt it and also with the fuel lines you wount have to change it or the injectors if you want more information type in e85 in google and there is alot of good info on this E85 topic
[quote="slowolej"]These guys also mention that E85 conversion can be considered illegal in some areas, which might be important if you live in a place with stricty emissions laws.
E85 conversion kits are illegal because they dont pass emmissions. Converting a car to E85 can actually make emissions worse. They're not legal because they have to have approval from the EPA (i.e. the manufacturer has to get some sort of liscense) Which is very VERY expensive. And they'd pretty much have to converta a car and give it up for 50,000 miles to show that in that time, it'll still pass emissions. The auto manufacturers already have to get their vehicles approved and run within the standards, so it's no problem for them to do the Flexfuel vehicles. Flexfuel is done with a sensor in the tank that will detect pure gasoline to E85 ethanol. The computer can adjust for either blend, or any mix of the two.
Since the engine itself may be used in other cars that are flexfuel, it's probably perfectly capable of handling E85 with no issues, as well as possibly the rest of the fuel system. But the ECM is not set to have it. So your engine will lean out really bad, and eventually quit running if you put it in.
Daniel Mottoh wrote:Im not to sure on this whole thing but I know hot rod mag did a write up on e85 a few month back about running it in sbc chevy with a carb. What they found out is that you can run higher cr than with gas(13.1)less detination. I am trying to find the article, ill post it up when I find it.
thats because e85 has something like a 105 octane rating... which would make it almost like running race gas... alcohol also burns cooler which helps to prevent detonation, and i think i remember reading that alcohol's specific power is pretty high also, i think due to the oxygen content... I'm sure slow will correct me if i'm in error
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
So if the octane rating is higher, and this stuff is cheap, and if it can produce more hp, like say in boosted or all motor applications, WHY THE HELL NOT DO IT..
Oh and SHOoff, if you want to mod your car to not pass emissions tests, move to montana we don't test here. I think there are emissions laws in montana, i just know that there are no test stations to register your vehicle, or own it, and you don't get pulled over because your exhaust is noisy, and your engine is better than the 5.0's
why not? first off, because E85 is still far from being plentiful and available. I'm not even sure you can get it anywhere in jersey... i've never seen it... probably more available in the midwest. Secondly, the switchover cost vs the performance gain is still questionable. Thirdly, the need for a richer a/f ratio will make mileage suffer enough where the reduced cost of E85 might not save any money at all, especially on a performance oriented, hard driven vehicle.
I'm not saying it'll never happen, i'm saying that its still quite early in the implementation of this technology... just like how computers and flat screen tv's were prohibitively expensive to the average consumer when they debuted...
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Quote:
I'm sure slow will correct me if i'm in error
well.. the only thing I really get upset about is offhand comments like "it's no big deal, just buy a kit" from someone who's car and money aren't on the line if there's a problem. I've been caught in a few fires caused by poorly modded fuel systems brought into the shop. As far as I can see, everyone's covered the important points very well.
My personal opinion is that we should be using more alcohol (as fuel, damnit!) Places like eastern MT and northeastern WY have excellent soil for growing sugar beets. Not only are sugar beets the largest source of white sugar in the US but they are exactly the right PH for yeast to thrive, which only helps the alcohol making process. And sugar beets can produce some good, strong alcohol.
Keep the money here, provide more income for farmers, reduce oil imports... it all sounds good to me.
And yes, E85 can support some awesome boost levels if you can provide enough of it. You get into things like staged injectors, oversized rails, and 1/2 fuel lines for running high boost alky. It's not technology that's cheap and easy for the street car, yet.
-->Slow
It's kinda hard for the nation as a whole to just swap over to E85. Brazil went to E100, but it took a while. (We run E85 in the US cuz the 15% gasoline helps for cold starting). One reason, we dont have enough ethanol plants to support ourselves. Then you have all the crap that goes along with building those plants. Plus, there arent really that many gas stations that sell E85. So you have to get companies to install E85 pumps at their stations. The manufacturers would have to make more cars that will do flexfuel in order to get those stations to do that.
And the biggest part. Big Oil owns the government. That's probably going to be one of the biggest battles.
SHOoff wrote:And the biggest part. Big Oil owns the government. That's probably going to be one of the biggest battles.
Um, ding. Switching over would make too much sense anyway.
As far as what's required to switch over, I don't see why you would need any more than the tuning on a modern vehicle, as our gas already has ethanol in the petrol.
How about switching over to LPG? I've only seen instructions for carb'd apps, and using it as an added source (propane injection on diesels). What is needed to switch a MPFI engine to strictly LPG?
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Gas has 10% ( E10) ethanol in it. We're talking about going to 85%. Your car will run just fine with a blend of 0 to 10% ethanol, but with 85% it will lean out real bad, cuz you just need more of it (since Ethanol's output is 2/3 of gasoline)
Alcohol has a corrosive effect. The fuel system in every car from some point in the 80's til now is able to handle E10. Once you go to 85% you can run into problems with corrosion in the fuel system.
Propane is gas at room temprature. Gas and Ethanol is liquid. To get it to be liquid you need to either make it really cold, or compress it. Being that you're not going to keep it that cold in your car, it'll be compressed. So it needs to stay in a container that will hold the pressure. (Look at a Forklift) Though.... some Cav's with the 2200 are set up for some natural gas I believe.
Alky is a "pure" fuel, unlike gasoline. Pump gas conatins a blend of hydrocarbons which varies from light to heavy. The temperature at which the fuels vaporize increases with the molecular weight of the particular component. Gasoline starts to boil between 90-120 degrees F and can continue to boil past 300 deg F depending on the blend. Ethanol is one molecule. It boils at 180 deg F, so it burns well when the engine is hot, not so well when cold. As mentioned, a 15% gasoline blend (mostly lighter hydrocarbons) aids starting. Building an alky specific engine with Increased compression will also work, and high pressure efi which provides good atomization can work wonders over the old carby days.
Oil owns government, and today government owns oil. Look at the companies VP Cheney owns.
I've owned a propane powered car. It had over 200k miles back in the days when 150k seemed like a lot. Propane conversions use a "mixer" to introduce propane into the intake air. As propane expands from stored liquid under high pressure to gas, it absorbs heat from it's surroundings. And it absorbs a lot of heat. The mixer (or a preheater) is usually connected to engine coolant to provide a source of heat for the incoming fuel. A side effect of this is that some propane conversions never seem to heat up. Propane also has less specific power than gasoline. A tank of fuel must be larger to provide the same mileage per tankful. And propane isn't allowed in some cities and in some tunnels. CNG is another alternative, but CNG gets even worse mileage than propane. And CNG must be stored at much higher pressure than propane. Still, GM does make some CNG vehicles for sale to the government and others looking to use alternative fuels.
There's also a very large inherent disadvantage to using any gaseuos fuel. A fuel in a gaseous state takes up a large volume compared to liquid fuel. Gaseous fuels displace fresh air and the oxygen needed for combustion. So naturally aspirated engines using gaseous fuels tend to produce lower horsepower than liquid fuel counterparts because they simply can't get as much oxygen to burn.
If there's a company in your area which delivers propane, stop in and talk to the guys at the garage. Chances are good that they are using propane powered vehicles in the fleet. Impco is one company making propane conversions for EFI, and I know there are others. It's neat stuff, although they tend to do the same types of things in terms of fooling the ecm/pcm as the guys who tune without HPTuners.
-->Slow
